1 BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OF EQUALIZATION 2 5901 GREEN VALLEY CIRCLE 3 CULVER CITY, CALIFORNIA 4 5 6 7 8 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT 9 APRIL 24, 2012 10 11 CORPORATE FRANCHISE AND PERSONAL INCOME TAX HEARING 12 APPEAL OF 13 JAMES J. MARTIN, 574254 14 (ITEM B1) 15 AGAINST PROPOSED ASSESSMENT OF 16 ADDITIONAL INCOME TAX 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Reported by: Kathleen Skidgel 28 CSR No. 9039 1 1 P R E S E N T 2 For the Board Jerome E. Horton of Equalization: Chairman 3 4 Michelle Steel Vice-Chair 5 6 Betty T. Yee Member 7 8 George Runner Member 9 10 Marcy Jo Mandel Appearing for John 11 Chiang, State Controller (per Government Code 12 Section 7.9) 13 Joann Richmond 14 Chief Board Proceedings Division 15 16 17 For Board of Anthony Epolite Equalization Staff: Staff Counsel 18 19 Supervising Tax Counsel 20 For Franchise Tax Kristen Magers Board: Tax Counsel 21 Craig Scott 22 Tax Counsel 23 For Appellant: James J. Martin 24 Taxpayer 25 26 ---oOo--- 27 28 2 1 5901 GREEN VALLEY CIRCLE 2 CULVER CITY, CALIFORNIA 3 APRIL 24, 2012 4 ---oOo--- 5 MS. RICHMOND: Our next item is B1, James J. 6 Martin. 7 Please come forward. 8 MR. HORTON: Uh, Mr. Epolite, as the taxpayer 9 comes and gets settled, would you please introduce the 10 issues in this case. 11 MR. EPOLITE: Good morning. Anthony Epolite 12 with the Appeals Division, Chairman Horton, Members. 13 The issue before the Board in this matter is 14 whether Appellant resided in Indian country during 2005 15 so that his reservation source income is not subject to 16 California tax. 17 MR. HORTON: Thank you. 18 The taxpayer will have 10 minutes to make their 19 presentation. We would ask that you commence with your 20 introduction for the record. 21 MR. MARTIN: My name is James Martin. And, uh, 22 thank you for affording me this opportunity to 23 present -- 24 MR. HORTON: Uh, sir. 25 There you go. 26 MR. MARTIN: Thank you for, uh -- uh, affording 27 me this opportunity to present this evidence on this. 28 Uh, I'm a member of the Morongo Band of Mission 3 1 Indians. Also, I'm an elected official for the Economic 2 Development and Planning Commission, which is in charge 3 of land use projects and monetary and diversification 4 policies throughout the reservation and with adjoining 5 businesses and other, uh, tribes throughout the United 6 State and California. 7 Uh, during this time I did not have, uh, my 8 own, uh, property that I owned on the reservation. But 9 I do have numerous relatives there, one of them being 10 Helen Black who is a widow. Uh, she was, uh, related to 11 my mother and my, uh, grandmother. They were -- grew up 12 as best friends. 13 Uh, she's a widow, as I said. And so I was 14 able to, um -- she offered, while I stayed at the 15 reservation, to stay at her house. She had a 16 four-bedroom home; she lived there by herself. 17 Um, the Tribe has always had, uh, what's known 18 as custom and tradition. It's a warm opening, uh, where 19 individuals, uh, if they are not -- have certain, uh, 20 responsibilities, are allowed to live with other people, 21 they open their homes. They're very gracious and kind. 22 And, uh, so was Mrs. Black in affording me use of her 23 residence while I was there. It's also helped her 24 because she was elderly, and, uh, I was able to do many 25 projects for her, and help and assist her. 26 Uh, I work for the Planning Commission. Uh, my 27 duties are extensive. There are long hours. We 28 contribute many major projects. Just to name a few, 4 1 we're working with Caltrans to develop a truck stop; we 2 completed, in 2005 and '06 Arrowhead Bottling Company; 3 uh, the hotel and casino was, uh, redone with our 4 assistance; uh, we were working on an RV park, energy 5 developments and an intermodal. All these are extensive 6 projects. 7 Uh, I brought along one of the energy projects 8 that I've worked on, that I'm still doing so. Here's 9 the book, uh, for, uh, the Planning Commission. I was 10 elected as the Vice Chairman. As you can see, it's 11 extremely extensive. 12 Here's a general use plan that we developed in 13 2005. This is the 2008 edition, which we revise every 14 year as things change correspondingly. 15 In addition, my extensive duties on the 16 reservation with that, I traveled extensively for the 17 Tribe in conferences and other projects that we 18 reviewed. Uh, case in point is the energy production 19 with a company known as Direct Energy Technologies that 20 wishes to burn, uh, and utilize existing trash as a 21 source of energy and other byproducts. 22 Uh, here's their -- I have to go through this 23 entire thing with them. Uh, the Tribe has asked me, on 24 the latter part of this month, to travel to Wisconsin 25 where one of these plants is in existence, to review it. 26 Uh, also, during, uh, next month I will be going to 27 Scottsdale, Arizona for a five-day conference on, uh, 28 green energy projects in Indian lands. 5 1 In addition to my, uh, working extensively with 2 the Planning Commission, uh, I have experience of 25 3 years of law enforcement with Los Angeles Police 4 Department. Uh, so I developed a training program for 5 the tribal security officers, both, uh, at the casino 6 and hotel and what's known as a reservation patrol that 7 handles the residential areas and some other businesses 8 that are located throughout the reservation. And 9 approximately -- and the fire personnel also there. 10 I give extensive, uh, training to, uh, these 11 individuals. There's approximately in excess of 200, 12 uh, safety personnel on the reservation. Uh, there are 13 security and non-sworn law enforcement officers. So we 14 have to extensively train them in duties that's required 15 of their position, uh, law enforcement issues. 16 And also what is -- I prepared also, uh -- uh, 17 documentation for terrorist attacks because our 18 reservation is the largest employer in the entire 19 county. Uh, and with the source of -- one of the 20 buildings is 28 stories high, so it's a figurehead and 21 it would be an easy target, such as the Twin Towers were 22 in New York. I travel extensively for this, gathering 23 information, keeping it current as I give at least one 24 class every week to two weeks, uh, for personnel. 25 I've, uh, worked with FBI agents and DEA agents 26 and other law enforcement agencies to come as speakers, 27 and I work in conjunction with them. 28 Uh, in addition to this, I'm a member of the 6 1 Senior's Program, which is individuals in the tribal 2 membership that are 55 years or older. And this, uh -- 3 I work with, uh, trying to develop projects with them 4 with, uh, the manager of that program. Uh, and I travel 5 with them, as well, on occasion. 6 Uh, I also work directly under the Tribal 7 Council. And so this is, uh, a major project for 8 myself. It requires a lot of time and diligence to keep 9 them apprised of economic development projects and other 10 projects that may compliment or, um, be negatively 11 impacting, uh, existing or planned projects for the 12 reservation. 13 Because of this time element, I've 14 approximately stayed, uh, 65 to 70 percent, I would 15 estimate, the time I was on the reservation or working 16 on projects directly with the reservation. 17 I've asked, uh, certain personnel at the 18 reservation, that you may have at your disposal letters 19 to this effect. Two of them are directly from our 20 security personnel. One, our Chief, Mike Levine, who is 21 the Terrorism Liaison Officer and a chief law 22 enforcement officer for the reservation patrol. He 23 cites the training I've given to, uh, tribal members. 24 Also, the head of our Gaming Agency and Security 25 Department; that's Jerome Schultze, Lieutenant -- uh, 26 former Lieutenant with the Pasadena Police Department. 27 And thirdly, uh, my immediate supervisor, our CEO of the 28 reservation, Roger Meyer; and he explained, uh, some of 7 1 the projects, very briefly, and the capacity that I 2 traveled extensively. 3 Uh, I'm not given a large salary for this, just 4 merely a small stipend. But my philosophy has been 5 that, you know, we were getting a good portion of money 6 at that time from the per capita from the income casino 7 and hotel. And this is my way of helping and paying 8 back the Tribe for their generosity and kindness. 9 Um, unfortunately, I had to retire from the 10 police department due to a medical issue, and it's 11 increasingly become more and more severe over time. So 12 it does -- it limits my amount of time that I can 13 travel. The residence that I have in Huntington Beach, 14 which my children occupy, is approximately 200-mile -- 15 200-mile round trip. And that would -- my doctor said 16 that would overtax my system. He wrote a letter to this 17 effect which I've included in the documentation to you. 18 So, whenever possible, I fly or we use a 19 vehicle that's a little more convenient and comfortable, 20 that will, uh, not impact, uh, my medical condition. 21 I've also apprised the doctor that we have on the 22 reservation of my condition and the EMT personnel, so if 23 something was to arise, that I could get medical 24 treatment. 25 It became aware, uh, from my talk with the 26 auditing department of the State, that a lot of my 27 documents were also sent to my home in Huntington Beach. 28 And I did this, uh, out of necessity. During the last 8 1 10 years I've had, uh, identity theft occur twice, one 2 extensively which damaged my credit for a number of 3 years, and another one a few years ago that wasn't as, 4 uh, horrific. 5 The Tribe was aware of this. It was an ongoing 6 problem for many, many years and they finally addressed 7 it with the Postal Inspector's Office and other law 8 enforcement agencies in the immediate area to try and 9 curtail it and apprised the Tribe of it. This isn't the 10 first instance of it, but it -- you know, they're 11 sometimes slow to react to some problems there. But 12 I've included that with it. 13 Also, a letter that -- my election to the 14 Planning Commission. It's a much sought after position. 15 An individual that is not known or doesn't frequent the 16 reservation on a -- a large time span will not be 17 elected to most of these because there's a trust issue. 18 Unfortunately, Native Americans are very, um -- have 19 become very untrusting in many instances, so it takes a 20 long time to earn their trust and conviction. I tried 21 to do so with that by attending as much as I could. I 22 attend safety meetings, uh, helping to develop an 23 Emergency Response Program for the Tribe, which now have 24 our own department set up. I have a booklet that I 25 brought with me that I helped prepare with other 26 members. 27 Uh, I brought my tribal identification card 28 which I have forwarded to you as an example. Also, I 9 1 did receive some mail. Unfortunately, a lot of it, I 2 just -- like most people, I just discarded it. But I do 3 have, uh, documentation that was sent to, uh, the home 4 that I occupied there with Mrs. Black on the 5 reservation. 6 Uh, there was also an explanation -- a request 7 why my insurance policy said "Owner-occupied." I 8 brought a copy of my, uh, insurance policy which I get 9 from them on a routine basis. And I looked at this, and 10 I couldn't find anything on there where it said 11 "Owner-occupied." Now, maybe on the master or the 12 original, there may have been. But as to the subsequent 13 ones that came, I've looked at it -- usually I just look 14 at the cover page because that tells me how much I owe, 15 what my coverage is, and the extra incidentals that are 16 involved in that. 17 Uh, another aside to this, I'm also doing 18 research with, uh, the Tribe for the last -- Mrs. Black 19 extensively, because she was a family member, and I'm 20 trying to develop, uh, ancestral picture for the Tribe 21 so that each member knows their own background and can 22 better, uh, relate to, uh, their past and work with, uh, 23 our tribal historian, a Mr. Navarro. 24 As you can see -- and if you'd like to, I have 25 a general plan which we wrote extensively. Uh, this is 26 the first plan in the entire western United States where 27 a tribe, uh, presented a general plan and was accepted 28 by both the State of California and, uh, the Bureau of 10 1 Indian Affairs. 2 On here, uh, I have our daily activities and 3 weekly activities with the Planning Commission. It goes 4 year-by-year. It shows travel, meetings, uh, work with 5 correspondingly on. And that's why I brought this one 6 document, to show, uh -- uh, one of the current 7 projects. I also have in here with me, um, an RV park 8 that's -- has been planned since 19 -- since 2005 that 9 I've worked on, and we've -- it's taken this time to, 10 uh, finally, uh, come to fruition. 11 I hope that, um -- one issue that came up was, 12 uh, that I cashed, uh, checks in the Huntington Beach, 13 where I live. And what I did was I forwarded my 14 children -- they're all adults; they were attending 15 school, except for my oldest son who was working -- 16 access to this account, and that's where they were able 17 to draw money from. 18 As I said, I received a small stipend from the 19 reservation for my work with the Planning Commission, 20 and I just cashed those checks for any money that I 21 needed at site or withdrew from our account. 22 Uh, I hope this, uh, helps give you, uh, an 23 oversight of the amount of time and effort that I put 24 into my work there. Um, I'm trying to accomplish 25 something, to leave the reservation in a better place 26 than it was prior to my arrival. And, uh, hopefully a 27 lot of this reflects that and you will take that into 28 consideration. 11 1 MR. HORTON: Thank you very much for your 2 presentation. We will return to you for a five-minute 3 rebuttal. 4 We'll now go to the Department. You have 10 5 minutes to make your presentation. Please commence with 6 your introductions. 7 MS. MAGERS: Thank you. 8 Uh, good morning, Chairman, Members of the 9 Board. My name is Kristen Magers, and sitting with me 10 is Craig Scott. And together we'll be representing 11 Respondent Franchise Tax Board. 12 Um, on Appellant's, uh, 2005 California State 13 Tax Return, he showed a federal AGI of approximate -- 14 approximately $372,000, and he adjusted out of his 15 California income approximately $385,000, leaving 16 negative California AGI and no tax liability. 17 Uh, of that $385,000, approximately 379,000 18 represented a distribution from the Morongo Band of 19 Indians, of which Appellant is a member. 20 Appellant would be entitled to remove this 21 income from his California AGI as nontaxable if he could 22 show that three conditions were met. Only one of the 23 conditions is, um, at issue today, and that is whether 24 or not Appellant lived on or off the Morongo Indian 25 Reservation in 2005. 26 Um, while the Tax Board does not doubt his 27 sincere devotion to the Tribe and the betterment of the 28 Tribe -- and he has showed that in the documentation -- 12 1 uh, the evidence in this case supports that Appellant 2 lived in his Huntington Beach home during that time and 3 was an occasional guest on the reservation during 4 2005. 5 For starters, he owned a home in Huntington 6 Beach and did not own a home on the reservation. On his 7 Orange County property tax, he took the homeowner's 8 exemption. When you fill out the Orange County Property 9 Homeowner's Exemption Form, you sign under penalty of 10 perjury that you use this home as your primary 11 residence. 12 Uh, we contacted the Orange County Assessor's 13 Office to see if they -- uh, in Appellant's opening 14 brief he stated that he contacted them and was advised 15 to take the homeowner's exemption. And they have stated 16 that they would not advise anyone who did not use the 17 home as their primary residence, um, to take the 18 homeowner's exemption for that property. 19 Uh, the homeowner's insurance that he had on 20 the property during 2005 showed that the home was 21 owner-occupied. His tax documentation from the pri -- 22 uh, from the Tribe was sent to the Huntington Beach 23 address. His bank statements were mailed to the 24 Huntington Beach address. The statement activity was 25 mailed to the Huntington -- uh, the statement activity 26 showed a concentration of activity around the Huntington 27 Beach area. 28 In his opening brief, he said that he had given 13 1 his eldest son use of the card, uh, because he only 2 received a small Social Security stipend and he needed 3 the additional money. When we checked on his son's 4 income, it turned out that he had substantial income 5 nearing $70,000 of his own income in 2005 from two 6 different consulting positions. 7 Um, on his 2005 tax return, he also claimed 8 Head of Household status. And he claimed his qualifying 9 person for Head of Household status as his son, Andrew 10 Martin. 11 Uh, attached to Appellant's opening brief 12 Andrew Martin signed an under-penalty-of-perjury 13 statement, stating that he lived at the Huntington Beach 14 address all year. 15 On the Head of Household Form that Appellant 16 signed under penalty of perjury, he checked the box that 17 said he lived with his son all year. Therefore, if he 18 lived with his son all year and his son lived at the 19 Huntington Beach address all year, Appellant also lived 20 at the Huntington Beach address all year. 21 Uh, the only support we have really that has 22 his, uh -- the date of 2005 and the, uh, on-reservation 23 address relates to vehicles and the Department of Motor 24 Vehicles. And there would be a motivation to register 25 vehicles to an on-reservation address that you use as 26 people who register their car to an on-reservation 27 address are exempt from the vehicle licensing fee that 28 you would be required to pay for licensing -- 14 1 registering any vehicle to an off-reservation address. 2 Furthermore, Appellant has failed to provide 3 evidence within his control which would support his 4 position, um, even when requested by Respondent. For 5 example, Appellant states that he lived with a relative, 6 Helen Black. Uh, we've asked for information to contact 7 Helen Black, such as her Social Security number, so that 8 we could track her down and, uh, confirm with Ms. Black 9 that he was staying on the reservation, and we were not 10 given that information. 11 We have no utility statements. We didn't 12 require that they were in his name, only that they were 13 in the name of the person who was -- who owned the home, 14 which would have been Helen Black, and we received none. 15 We have no letter from the Tribe stating that 16 he lived on the reservation. It is extremely typical in 17 these cases for a member of the Tribe to receive a 18 letter from the Tribe stating that they lived on the 19 reservation. We did request that. 20 Um, we have no statement from the relative that 21 he lived with, saying that he stayed at that time, even 22 though we did request it. 23 Appellant, um, was asked to state -- state how 24 many days he stayed on the reservation, uh, which is 25 typical in residency and Indian taxation cases. And he, 26 uh, did not have a log of the days but also failed to 27 provide an estimate of the number of days. 28 In conclusion, it's Appellant's burden to meet 15 1 all three factors for excluding his tribal source income 2 from California, uh, AGI. And here, Appellant has 3 failed his burden to prove that he met the third 4 requirement, which is that he lived on his reservation 5 during 2005. And, therefore, Appellant's position 6 should be sustained. 7 MR. HORTON: Thank you. 8 Taxpayer on rebuttal. 9 MR. MARTIN: Yes, I'd like to address some of 10 the issues the lady has broughten (phonetic) up. 11 Uh, the first one is in the homeowner's 12 exemption. I did call the department, and I was advised 13 that, uh -- I had explained the situation, that I was 14 off and on. And they said, well, if you own the home, 15 the lady told me, you could go ahead and just continue 16 that. I said, well, it's only a few dollars. I'd 17 rather prefer it be changed. Well, uh, call us back, 18 you know, but I -- we don't -- we think that that's all 19 right. And I took her advice, being a layman, as, uh, 20 pertinent and, um, agreeable. 21 There's many times that you'll call, uh, 22 agencies such as this and you may get wrong information 23 from people. I don't remember who I talked to, just one 24 member of the, uh -- the office. And I never called 25 back again. 26 Uh, as to, uh, the time away, I said by the 27 mere showing the enormity of the tasks that I have, had 28 to be extensively. And I did advise Mr. Ethan Cohen, 16 1 the auditor that first talked to me. He asked how 2 long -- the specific dates. And it's true, I couldn't 3 give him the specific dates on all occasions. But I did 4 estimate it was between 65 and 70 percent of the time I 5 was on the reservation or doing reservation projects. 6 Uh, as to the cash received at these locations, 7 it wasn't only my son, James, uh, who was receiving it 8 but my daughter, Alexis, and my son, Andrew. Both 9 Andrew and Alexis, uh, weren't working. They were, 10 uh -- they were full-time students, and, uh, it helped 11 them, uh, with things. 12 My son did earn some money that year, but he'd, 13 uh -- he was under a doctor's care because of, uh, an 14 injury in the Marine Corps, and also his chosen field 15 was construction. Uh, I believe that was the last year 16 that he worked full-time, and he's been on permanent 17 disability, uh, since roughly the -- the year after 18 that. 19 Uh, now, my son, Andrew, he's not -- my 20 children aren't tribal members. I'm the only tribal 21 member. It stops with myself. 22 The tribal ID card that she enumerated, uh, 23 was, uh, given to me by the Tribe. They look into your 24 residency and they don't, uh, take it lightly when you, 25 uh -- when they issue a card. It's a government 26 document, and they consider it valid and acceptable. 27 Uh, for the vehicle fees, it's a small amount 28 that's taken off. It's -- it's not a huge amount, the 17 1 amount of money that I was receiving. 2 Uh, the reason I haven't been able to get the 3 information to them for Helen Black is she's, uh, 4 deceased. And the house, uh, that we occupied with her 5 has -- has been sold to other people, and I wasn't able 6 to get the information. I apprised them of that fact. 7 Um, I think with the overall enormity of the 8 things that I've -- I've provided, the letters of 9 explanation to what I do and the time amounts involved, 10 the amount of personnel that I train, the amounts of 11 projects that I work for the Tribe and do, I think that 12 I've met the burden of requirement for, uh, residency on 13 the Tribe. 14 Uh, the tribal members and Native Americans may 15 look at residency a little differently than the State 16 does. I find them to be a very open and giving people, 17 uh, especially the people that are my age, uh, that open 18 their homes to relatives, especially Helen Black. And 19 because of her condition as, uh, a widow in a large 20 home, uh, she was happy to have me reside there with her 21 while I conducted tribal business with both Planning 22 Commission and other departments on the reservation, 23 Council included. It also included many trips to 24 Sacramento on gaming issues, which I'm also, uh, seeking 25 a position on the Gaming Commission for the State 26 of Cali -- or for the Tribe, to represent us with 27 California. 28 As I said, I looked at the, uh -- my Farmers 18 1 policy that I received, and nowhere it says about 2 owner-occupied. Though, you know, it may indicate it on 3 some document. I normally just look at the front page 4 where it shows, uh, the description of, uh, what's 5 covered, uh, the amount, and the amount what's due. I 6 don't always look extensively at it. And maybe that may 7 be a fault, but many people just don't have the time to 8 do that. 9 I'm trying to, uh, work closely with the Tribe 10 and the State in developing projects that help both. 11 Uh, thanks to some of the projects that we've done, 12 we're now the largest employer in the -- in the county, 13 which is thousands and tens of thousands of jobs, uh, to 14 the income of the State. And I think I've met the 15 burden of proof for residency, uh, on the reservation. 16 MR. HORTON: Thank you very much. 17 Member Mandel? 18 MS. MANDEL: Did -- did you ask -- sir, did you 19 ask the, um, Tribe if they had, uh, information for 2005 20 of the days that the Planning Commission may have -- may 21 have met? I think there was some indication that -- 22 that, um, meetings may have gone over, you know, more 23 than one day and that sort of thing. Um -- uh, I'm 24 trying to think of things you might have asked them for, 25 documentation that would help back up your -- 26 MR. MARTIN: Well, they normally -- 27 MS. MANDEL: -- time estimate. 28 MR. MARTIN: Tribal, uh, position has always 19 1 been that they keep documents for three years primarily. 2 But the Planning Commission here, I've 3 brought -- this isn't the same year, but it gives an 4 indication -- it gives, uh, a timeline of, uh, my 5 attendance. And we meet, uh, once a week and, uh -- for 6 a formal meeting. And after that we usually stay two to 7 three to four days, to working on projects or we're 8 out-of-state or off-reservation on, uh, tribal, uh, 9 matters, either examining projects or going to 10 conferences to try and improve existing conditions on 11 the reservation. 12 Uh, this one is -- that's why I brought this 13 example, because I'll be approximately seven to ten days 14 in, uh, Wisconsin with this thing. And then also for 15 four to five days in Scottsdale on green energy wind 16 production and, uh, alternative energy use. 17 So, uh, this -- I've offered this before. I 18 was going to send them the entire book, and then the 19 reservation said, no, you can't send a book like that. 20 But I -- I didn't think they'd want me to make this many 21 copies, so I brought it so that they could, you know, 22 look at -- you could look at it and see it shows the 23 amount of, um -- days that we're there, uh, per month 24 and also the travel projects that would go on and so on 25 and so forth. 26 MS. MANDEL: And -- and that, uh, timeline 27 is -- does it include 2005 or is it -- 28 MR. MARTIN: No, no. These are -- these are 20 1 done on a yearly basis, but it -- they don't have the 2 2005 one -- 3 MS. MANDEL: Oh, because of three-year -- 4 MR. MARTIN: Yes. But it gives you an 5 indication of what it is. And, uh -- and in 2005 our 6 income was, uh, higher than it is now. It's gone down 7 approximately in excess of 50 percent due to the 8 economy. And, uh, it did -- at the time in 2005 we were 9 actually more active than we are now because we had more 10 money to spend on -- on travel, examination of projects 11 and try, uh -- try and develop alternative and 12 diversification, uh, industries on the reservation and 13 with other tribes. 14 MS. MANDEL: Okay. When -- when did you buy 15 the Huntington Beach house? Just to -- I mean -- 16 MR. MARTIN: I would say around 2000. 17 MS. MANDEL: Okay. 18 MR. MARTIN: I -- what happened at that point 19 was, um, I'd had a divorce and, uh, I gained custody of 20 my two children, prior to their maturity. And so I had 21 to give them a home. Because the -- the, uh -- uh, the 22 stipulation in the divorce was that the mother, of 23 course, would be allowed to see the kids whenever she 24 wanted, which I -- I thought was a very good idea. I 25 wanted them to grow up, you know, as positively as 26 possible. So I had the home there for them. And, uh, 27 they've used that ever since. 28 MS. MANDEL: Um -- I guess my -- I mean, I know 21 1 we always look at the homeowner's exemption. And so 2 my -- usually I think people apply for the homeowner's 3 exemption around the time that they buy the property. 4 And it's not, um -- 5 MR. MARTIN: It's not a yearly claim. 6 MS. MANDEL: It's not a yearly claim. Uh, and 7 that's why I was interested in when you, uh, bought the 8 house. 9 Uh, and when did you -- when are you saying 10 that you, uh, started essentially living on -- 11 on-reservation if they were still minors? 12 MR. MARTIN: Oh, um, well, when I talk about 13 minors, they were both 17 years old. They had my 14 adult -- my other adult son from a previous marriage 15 from that one, and he was 10 years older than them. So, 16 you know, I didn't have a problem when I was off because 17 he was there, you know, and his wife, with them. They 18 were both attending school and they went on -- they went 19 on to college. 20 Uh, so it wasn't -- you know, I wasn't 21 abandoning them, so to speak. There was always, you 22 know, someone there, uh, to be with them. 23 And I didn't say that I didn't come to the 24 house -- the residence. I told very frankly with them 25 that I did spend some time there every month. I mean -- 26 and when -- a lot of times when I went to these trips, I 27 would take them on -- my daughter especially is very 28 interested in Native American history and projects. And 22 1 she's accompanied me on many things. In fact, one of 2 her theses on getting her Masters was on Native American 3 culture. 4 So I've -- you know, I've worked closely with 5 them because it's important to me that, you know, 6 they -- they were brought up in a stable, uh, 7 environment. And, uh, I tried to afford that as much as 8 possible. 9 MS. MANDEL: Okay. I don't have anything else 10 right now. 11 MR. HORTON: Okay. Thank you. 12 Member Steel. 13 MS. STEEL: Um, to the Department. Um, you 14 said that there's three requirements. 15 MS. MAGERS: Mm-hmm. 16 MS. STEEL: One, uh, that this taxpayer has to 17 live in the tribal reservation. And then what is second 18 and third? 19 MS. MAGERS: Uh, the first requirement is that 20 the income be from a reservation source. 21 MS. STEEL: Okay. 22 MS. MAGERS: Which is not at issue because this 23 is a distribution -- 24 MS. STEEL: Right. 25 MS. MAGERS: -- from the Tribe. 26 And the second is that they be an enrolled 27 member of the Tribe, which is not at issue because he is 28 an enrolled member of the Tribe. 23 1 MS. STEEL: Okay. So this taxpayer was 2 traveling a lot from, uh -- because of the tribal works, 3 means that those works days even he's out of tribal -- 4 tribe, uh, reservations, his account, as a living. 5 MS. MAGERS: Whether or not you reside in a 6 place has to do with basically all of the facts and 7 circumstances, um, surrounding it. And basically, if 8 you're in California for, um -- you know, the general 9 rule is if you're in California for other than 10 transitory or temporary purposes -- 11 MS. STEEL: I get that part. 12 MS. MAGERS: Yeah. 13 MS. STEEL: But just for tribal work that he's 14 been doing, that he's been traveling a lot for tribal 15 works. So is that by the law that it's okay that we 16 count as a living? 17 MS. MAGERS: I do not believe that that is a 18 settled area of law -- 19 MS. STEEL: It's gray area. 20 MS. MAGERS: -- for this particular issue. 21 Um, I would say that if those, um, days were 22 spent in California, that they would probably lean 23 towards California residency just because he would have 24 been working in California and not on the tribal, um 25 ground. 26 MS. STEEL: But it's a tribal work though. 27 MS. MAGERS: It's tribal work, but it's not -- 28 MS. STEEL: It can go both ways. 24 1 MS. MAGERS: Well -- 2 MS. STEEL: What you are saying is it's not 3 really clear. 4 MS. MAGERS: Because if you were working in 5 California, right, um, if you were -- if you lived in 6 Arizona and you were working in California, those days 7 that you are working in California we would count those 8 towards your California residency if you were on the -- 9 the cusp of, are you a resident of Arizona or are you a 10 resident of California, depending on if you were not 11 temporary. 12 So, it's hard to say with Indian taxation 13 because it is different than residency, and I don't 14 believe that there are -- 15 MS. STEEL: But that's why I'm asking you, but 16 I'm not really getting the answer. You just keep going 17 around. 18 So, can you answer me, please? 19 MR. EPOLITE: We would determine the residency 20 issue separate and distinct from any traveling that he 21 did. 22 MS. STEEL: But he's working for tribal. Those 23 travels were working -- he was working for Tribe at that 24 time. 25 MR. EPOLITE: Correct. 26 MS. STEEL: And now, too, but -- so that counts 27 as a living in the -- you know, Tribe or not? 28 MR. EPOLITE: Well, you would still need to 25 1 determine, first of all, where his residency was. And 2 the travel would follow his residency. 3 MS. STEEL: Okay. Okay. But he stayed in the 4 Tribe, tribal reservations for while he's working there, 5 that for the meetings, especially for the Planning 6 Commission meetings, that he stayed there for two or 7 three days to follow up work. And then he's been 8 traveling for those work for outside of California or 9 outside of Tribes. 10 So, you know, that's why I'm asking here that's 11 related to this residency issue. That's why. 12 MR. EPOLITE: Right. And we would want to 13 determine, first, if he was on the reservation for 14 transitory purpose or if he'd established the residency 15 there, and then -- 16 MS. STEEL: But it's not clear. 17 MR. EPOLITE: But it's not clear, yes. 18 MS. STEEL: Okay. 19 Um, to the taxpayer that, you know, I -- I read 20 the letter that you provided here, the Chief and 21 Executive Director. They said that you work, but they 22 never really mention anything that you stayed in the 23 tribal -- 24 MR. MARTIN: Well, no. 25 MS. STEEL: -- reservation. 26 MR. MARTIN: The -- these -- the letters that 27 I -- that I gave you were, uh, for the secondary part, 28 which is the training I provide. 26 1 MS. STEEL: Right. 2 MR. MARTIN: And all they were interested in -- 3 they didn't follow up with, uh, the Planning Commission. 4 Mine was solely based on, uh, training that I gave -- 5 MS. STEEL: Okay. 6 MR. MARTIN: -- to approximately 250 personnel 7 on an ongoing basis. Um, that's what -- that's what 8 they saw it as. 9 So they were just -- they were just reflecting 10 what they saw. They didn't go into the residency issue 11 because they really wouldn't know about that. And, 12 uh -- who established that was the Tribe itself. By 13 issuing an official ID -- governmental ID card, they 14 stated that I was a resident at that time at the 15 reservation. And I provided that. 16 MS. STEEL: Can you -- could you build up the 17 log that -- you know, you brought those informations. 18 It's just like one once-a-week meeting and then three, 19 four days. 20 Can you build up your own? Because, uh, I 21 guess burden of proof is on taxpayer. So if you can 22 build up then how many days that, you know, you stayed 23 and how many, you know -- 24 MR. MARTIN: It's like I -- I -- I explained to 25 them, I was there -- you know, I was either -- I was on 26 the reservation probably close to 50 percent of the 27 time, if not more. And the additional time -- because 28 when I traveled -- and primarily most of -- I would say 27 1 about 80 percent of the travel was outside the state, 2 not just, you know, to other reservations or other 3 projects. 4 Like the two I'm -- I'm -- I've been asked to 5 go to, one is in Scottsdale, Arizona, the other is in 6 Wisconsin. They're not for personal issues whatsoever. 7 They are for the -- the betterment and restoration of 8 the Tribe. 9 MS. STEEL: I totally understand that. But can 10 you build the log, that, you know, how many days you 11 traveled? Of course, um, if they kept only for three 12 years, you would have your own records. 13 MR. MARTIN: Well, I can give you an estimation 14 on it. I mean we -- we officially meet, uh, at least 15 once a week. And, you know, it may vary what we have to 16 do between, you know, uh, two, three, four days we'll be 17 working on these projects. 18 And that's why it worked out so well with, uh, 19 the training is I was able to, uh -- uh, build a 20 schedule that went around that. So I ended up staying 21 more days because I was working, you know, with tribal 22 security and the safety personnel. 23 MS. STEEL: You never owned a house inside of, 24 uh, tribal reservation? 25 MR. MARTIN: We did at one time, but that's a 26 long time ago and it burnt down. This was many, many, 27 many years ago. And I've just secured the property 28 finally after, um -- 28 1 MS. STEEL: Do you own any land? 2 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, I finally do. I owned -- I 3 own property. 4 MS. STEEL: On 2005? 5 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 6 MS. STEEL: You owned the land? 7 MR. MARTIN: Mm-hmm. 8 MS. STEEL: But it was -- the house used to be 9 there; it burnt down. 10 MR. MARTIN: It burnt down. So at the time I 11 was using -- I was, uh, using the residence of 12 Mrs. Black as, uh -- uh, where I stayed on the 13 reservation primarily. 14 MS. STEEL: Okay. Thank you. 15 MR. HORTON: Mr. Runner. 16 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, um, just kind of clarifying. 17 This discussion is about residency not time on the 18 reservation; is that a -- is that a fair statement? 19 MS. MAGERS: Well, time on the reservation 20 would establish -- help to establish residency. 21 MR. RUNNER: You could go -- well, let me say 22 it this way -- 23 MS. MAGERS: It's one of the major factors. 24 MR. RUNNER: Let me say it this way, what if 25 you went to the reservation every day and you were from 26 8:00 to 5:00 and then went back to your home somewhere 27 else; would that be residency? 28 MS. MAGERS: Probably not because residency has 29 1 to do with where you have the closest ties, um, where 2 your family resides, where you receive your mail. You 3 know, um, it -- it's a list of -- 4 MR. RUNNER: It doesn't have to -- okay. Well, 5 that's interesting then. 6 So -- so it does have to do with the amount of 7 time? 8 MS. MAGERS: Um -- 9 MR. RUNNER: Not necessarily in that state for 10 instance? 11 MS. MAGERS: Well, the safe harbor for 12 residency that hasn't been applied really to -- to 13 Indians -- for California residency which has not been 14 applied to Indian taxation cases, uh, the safe harbor is 15 185 days -- um, 185 days plus, uh, will establish 16 residency. 17 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hmm. But hasn't been -- but 18 that's not -- has never been applied to this situation, 19 these kind of Indian -- 20 MS. MAGERS: Not exactly, no. 21 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 22 Let me ask you this then, in regards to -- so 23 in that sense, since this is about time, um, if an 24 individual, uh, let's say owned a home on-reservation 25 and owned a home elsewhere. 26 MS. MAGERS: Mm-hmm. 27 MR. RUNNER: And so split their time between 28 two different homes, residences -- houses, I should say. 30 1 Let's say for this discussion houses, that does not 2 necessarily then make them ineligible then for the, uh, 3 the -- the tax protection of revenues -- of income 4 return or received from the, uh, from Indian 5 reservation, Indian work. 6 MS. MAGERS: No. 7 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 8 MS. MAGERS: But a taxpayer can only have one 9 primary residence. So in that circumstance we would 10 need to find which house was the primary residence. 11 MR. RUNNER: Is that right? So -- so -- so -- 12 well, then let's go back to that. 13 Is that right? So by -- by our definition, if 14 somebody said this is my primary residence, but yet I 15 also have this house on the reservation, um, primary -- 16 primary would be determined in which -- in how? How 17 would we go about primary? 18 MS. MAGERS: It's the same facts and 19 circumstance test that I've -- I've been stating 20 before. 21 MS. MANDEL: Can you -- can you just speak up 22 because I'm having a little trouble hearing you, and 23 I'm -- 24 MS. MAGERS: I'm sorry. 25 It's the same facts and circumstance test that 26 I -- that I've been talking about throughout the -- the 27 case. It has to do with which piece of property you 28 have the most connection to. And we establish that 31 1 through the evidence available: Where the mail goes; 2 where bank statements are; where family is; uh, where 3 you're an active member of the community. Uh, all of 4 those things weigh one way or another. 5 And in this case, we believe that the balance 6 of the evidence supports that Appellant resided at his 7 Huntington Beach home. From his own statements, he 8 actually stated that he -- when he stays at the 9 reservation, he is a guest. And a guest, uh, is not a 10 resident. It's a guest. 11 MR. RUNNER: Is that -- is that -- um, so is 12 that right? So he would automatically not be able -- 13 because he had -- because he didn't pay for where he 14 stayed at night, or he didn't own where he stayed at 15 night, you would believe that he just then, by fact, 16 does not qualify? 17 MS. MAGERS: No, I believe that would be a 18 factor. 19 MR. RUNNER: Oh, a factor. 20 MS. MAGERS: Yes. 21 MR. RUNNER: Well, okay. I thought you said by 22 "guest" you were defining it not as. 23 MS. MAGERS: That was actually the Appellant's 24 statement in a letter to Respondent. 25 MR. RUNNER: Right. 26 MS. MAGERS: He said -- 27 MR. RUNNER: So you could qualify as a guest? 28 MS. MAGERS: I just believe that when you term 32 1 yourself a guest, you don't think of yourself as a 2 resident, you think of yourself as a guest. And that 3 was his statement to us. 4 MR. RUNNER: Your house burnt down and you had 5 a piece of property in the neighborhood, you would 6 still -- I mean -- I mean I -- I guess I see where 7 you're going. But it just seems to me there is some -- 8 there is some evidence that leads to the fact that there 9 was some -- some, uh, history in -- of -- of occupancy 10 of staying there, I guess you would say. But it 11 changed, I guess, at some point when the house was not 12 livable at that point. 13 MS. MAGERS: And considering there is another 14 livable home up nearby, the balance of that evidence 15 shifts towards us believing that he lived at the 16 Huntington Beach home during 2005. 17 MR. RUNNER: So in a circumstance to where, for 18 instance, the guy owned two houses -- an individual 19 owned two homes, um, and he's -- trying to get to the 20 definitions -- to own two homes, um, one of which owned 21 one of them, one of them then becomes not livable. So 22 as a result of that they have to be a guest in somebody 23 else's house, that would automatically then not make 24 them a resident at the reservation? 25 MS. MAGERS: I don't think there's any 26 automatic or black or white. 27 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Okay. Okay. So it's all 28 interpreting at that point. 33 1 MS. MAGERS: Correct. 2 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Um, so the idea is that you 3 could have two homes. You could, indeed, have two 4 places that you live back and forth in and still 5 maintain then and meet the criteria. 6 MS. MAGERS: Correct. 7 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So now it's a matter of how 8 much time. 9 Let me ask you about the -- the -- the time, 10 um, and -- and some of these issues. Um, how many 11 nights would you be staying at the reservation in that 12 year? 13 MR. MARTIN: It could go from possibly three to 14 five nights a week I was staying there. 15 Uh, but, you know, that's just a guestimation 16 on my part. Because sometimes I would, you know, be 17 gone on tribal business directly connected with the 18 reservation. 19 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 20 MR. MARTIN: Um, but, you know, it was -- 21 MR. RUNNER: Let me just clarify that. 22 If you were in a reservation and you were -- 23 and -- and you there and you were traveling from that 24 spot because your responsibility, uh, we would assume 25 that would then be a part of your residency from the -- 26 from the -- from the reservation, right? I mean, you're 27 not -- you're not -- you're not doing your -- you're not 28 doing that traveling because your -- your house is in -- 34 1 in -- in Huntington Beach or wherever this is. You're 2 doing it because of your responsibility and residency at 3 the reservation. 4 MS. MAGERS: Unfortunately, you need to 5 establish where your residence is first. Because when 6 you are transitorily traveling, that time is counted 7 towards your primary residence. And so you have to 8 determine what the primary residence is first before you 9 can determine where the travel time should be allotted. 10 So in this case we're kind of -- it's a little 11 cyclical. 12 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 13 You're -- at the house in -- at the house that 14 you stayed at in Huntington Beach, who else lived in 15 that house? 16 MR. MARTIN: Uh, my two children, Alexis Martin 17 and Andrew Martin. 18 And the reason -- 19 MR. RUNNER: Those are the only two that lived 20 there. 21 Did I not hear something about a son with a 22 wife? 23 MR. MARTIN: Yes. They would occasionally stay 24 there while they were, you know, moving at different 25 times. 26 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 27 MR. MARTIN: So they were there. 28 The question about the mail and other things 35 1 going there, I tried to bring out that I -- you know, 2 there was a serious theft problem on the reservation 3 because of the amounts of checks and stuff. And some 4 people didn't have direct deposit. This money would go 5 directly into -- you know, from mail. And numerous 6 times it was being stolen, identity theft. 7 I, on myself, I've had it happen twice, so I 8 know the severity of it. And in extensive traveling 9 through -- you know, for the Tribe, uh, I wanted 10 documents that, you know, would, uh, go to a place where 11 I considered safe. And if something had to be -- it was 12 a time sensitive issue, that they could, uh -- someone 13 could respond to me. 14 I'll be gone of up 10 days for this one trip to 15 Wisconsin. If something comes up in that time and 16 there's mail, I want -- I would want someone that would 17 be able to, you know, review that and, uh, you know, get 18 back to me. You know, some kind of emergency might come 19 up. Uh, if the mail is stolen there at the reservation 20 or something or it's not interceded, uh, I would lose 21 that ability. 22 So I was -- I was getting mail on the 23 reservation, a lot of mail, but I was also taking, uh, 24 things that were financially, um, sensitive, to what I 25 thought was a more secure location. 26 MR. RUNNER: Let me ask you about the issue. I 27 mean, establishing a residence, just walk through a 28 couple of those issues with me, um -- uh, that you think 36 1 would be the most significant, uh, in establishing 2 residency. 3 MS. MAGERS: I hate to give you this answer, 4 but what's most significant also depends on the case. 5 Um, so -- 6 MR. RUNNER: So -- so go ahead and give me my 7 answer. 8 MS. MAGERS: Where someone's, uh, banking is 9 done is often significant. Where people's family reside 10 because people want to spend time with their family is 11 significant. 12 MR. RUNNER: Let me ask you real quick. Is 13 there a bank -- is there a bank on the reservation? 14 MR. MARTIN: No. 15 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 16 MR. MARTIN: But I do have numerous relatives 17 on the reservation. 18 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Okay. I'm just going -- 19 just walk through there. 20 There's no bank on the reservation, so that one 21 can't be met. 22 MS. MAGERS: Mm-hmm. We had asked the 23 taxpayer -- 24 MR. RUNNER: What was the -- I'm sorry, did 25 you -- and the next one down? 26 MS. MAGERS: Um, I mean, there's not an exact 27 list. This is coming from, by the way, um, the 28 regulations to Section 121 -- 37 1 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 2 MS. MAGERS: -- which is sale of a primary 3 residence -- 4 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 5 MS. MAGERS: -- in helping determine primary 6 residency. 7 MR. RUNNER: Which is not -- is that -- that's 8 not necessarily a hundred percent applicable in this 9 situation, correct? 10 MS. MAGERS: No, but they do apply Section 121, 11 this regulation, to a lot of areas -- 12 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 13 MS. MAGERS: -- that deal with -- 14 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 15 MS. MAGERS: -- principal residency. 16 MR. RUNNER: So we're trying to find primary 17 residence. Banking could never be established there 18 because there's no bank on the reservation. 19 So what would be the next one? 20 MS. MAGERS: Okay. Um, automobile 21 registration, voter registration card. 22 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Let's go through those. 23 Voter registration, where was your voter 24 registration? 25 MR. MARTIN: It was, uh, there in that 26 county. 27 MR. RUNNER: In which county? 28 MR. MARTIN: Uh, San Bernardino County. 38 1 MR. RUNNER: So your voter registration was 2 there at the reservation? 3 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 4 MR. RUNNER: Or in that county. 5 Okay. Vehicle registration, where was that? 6 MR. MARTIN: That was there on the reservation 7 as well. 8 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So what's the next one 9 down? 10 MS. MAGERS: It says that they're 11 non-exclusive. 12 MR. RUNNER: They're what? 13 MS. MAGERS: That they're non-exclusive. That 14 these enumerated factors are non-exclusive, is the next 15 thing it says. 16 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 17 MS. MAGERS: Um -- okay. So, uh, location of 18 religious organizations, I think we didn't put down. 19 And then they -- we've talked about all the rest of 20 them. That's the only one left on this list. 21 MR. RUNNER: Well, I'm asking you to go through 22 them not we haven't talked -- oh. 23 MS. MAGERS: Well, because when you started 24 talking, I was talking about point two, and that was 25 point one. 26 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Okay. So, so far, I mean, 27 just trying to get -- walk through here, you're telling 28 me banking has -- is part of their residency. And so, 39 1 therefore, there's no banking available for him at 2 this -- at the reservation, so he couldn't use that as a 3 point of residency, right? 4 You're telling me voter registration -- 5 MS. MAGERS: There was banking near the 6 Huntington Beach home. 7 MR. RUNNER: But it was impossible for him to 8 bank at the reservation. So, I mean -- right? I mean, 9 it was impossible -- I mean, so -- so -- so banking, it 10 seems to me, he -- he could never establish residency 11 through banking at the reservation, correct? 12 MS. MAGERS: Correct. 13 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So -- so it seems to me, he 14 had no other choice but to bank somewhere else. 15 And then voter registration, his voter 16 registration was indeed in San Bernardino, not in Orange 17 County, correct? 18 MS. MAGERS: I -- I take it at this point, 19 yes. 20 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So I'm -- I'm just trying 21 to figure out how we got -- I mean, we talked about the 22 issue of residency is this kind of, um, you know, view 23 of how you go through the facts. So I'm just trying to 24 get through the facts there. 25 So now we -- it seems to me, mail was a big 26 part of this discussion, for residency. 27 MS. MAGERS: Mail was a big part of it. The, 28 um, homeowner's insurance. The, um, Orange County 40 1 property tax. 2 MR. RUNNER: Well, again, let -- let's talk 3 about homeowner's insurance. Um, I have -- I have a 4 couple homes. And I am -- I am -- both of them, I am -- 5 or are home -- are owner-occupied. 6 So, you can have homeowner's insurance that are 7 owner-occupied and have them on two different residences 8 at two different places, right? 9 MS. MAGERS: I will take you at your word for 10 that. 11 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Well, you can. You can. 12 Because either -- either it's owner-occupied or it's a 13 rental, for instance. 14 So -- so, for instance -- so if I have a 15 homeowner's insurance and I have two houses, and I live 16 in both of those houses at different times, both of 17 those insurance policies I'm shown as -- as owner, okay. 18 So, the fact that he has a policy out there 19 that says it's owner-occupied, I don't think anybody 20 disputes the fact that he spends time and that he owns a 21 home in -- in -- in Orange County. The -- so of course 22 it's going to be insurance that's owner-occupied, um, at 23 that point. 24 Okay. So the other issue was? 25 MS. MAGERS: Um, we took issue with the Head of 26 Household status claim. 27 MR. RUNNER: Now, why -- again, if he owns the 28 house down there -- no one disputes that he doesn't own 41 1 the house, so why wouldn't he still be able to do Head 2 of Household there at that house? 3 MS. MAGERS: Because you must reside with the 4 qualifying child for over half the year. 5 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So -- so in order to meet 6 that, you've got to -- you've got to reside there for 7 180 days, right? 8 MS. MAGERS: And then additionally, in this 9 case, he checked the box that said he resided with the 10 child all year. 11 MR. RUNNER: Does "all year" necessarily 12 reflect every day of the year? 13 MS. MAGERS: It does not. There are 14 exclusions. Um, for example, if a child is away at 15 school, that counts as an exclusion. 16 MR. RUNNER: No, no. But I mean -- I'm talking 17 about for the individual. The individual line -- for 18 instance, again, I -- I have -- I had -- when I had 19 children in college at that point and I had a house 20 somewhere else, I would often times -- you know, part of 21 the issue was they resided with me all year. 22 Now, I had another house, so I was somewhere 23 else at some of the time, but they still resided in my 24 house with me all year because it was at my house. 25 MS. MAGERS: For Head of Household status you 26 are supposed to reside with the child at least 50 27 percent of the year, which is 185 days. 28 MR. RUNNER: Okay. But -- okay. But didn't we 42 1 already establish the fact that the -- that -- that 2 there is no 180-day magical number attached to this 3 particular kind of case? 4 MS. MAGERS: For Head of Household? 5 MR. RUNNER: No. For this particular case, not 6 for head -- I mean, so -- so he qualifies there. Does 7 that mean he automatically would not qualify then under 8 your -- under that scenario for you? 9 MS. MAGERS: Again, it's one factor. 10 MR. RUNNER: It's one factor, okay. But not a 11 disqualifying factor? 12 MS. MAGERS: Not a disqualifying factor. 13 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. HORTON: Further discussion, Members? 15 The de -- question of the taxpayer. The 16 Department has articulated or delineated a number of 17 documents that requires the taxpayer to basically 18 signify under penalty of perjury or, uh, in confidence 19 where their residence is. 20 Um, do you have any such document that would 21 contradict that? And just to sort of add a caveat to 22 that if I could, and is there a reason that the Tribal 23 Council would not provide you a letter of residency? 24 MR. MARTIN: Well, one, they don't -- I mean, 25 with their schedule, they don't normally delve into 26 issues like this. They, uh -- 27 MR. HORTON: I mean -- 28 MR. MARTIN: If you're a resident and they 43 1 consider it so, then they issue you a card to that 2 effect. And that's where they consider your residence. 3 And they issued me one after, uh -- uh, whatever 4 examination they did and they determined that. 5 Now the Council's -- you know, those people 6 are -- you know, that's a number of years ago. They -- 7 they change every year. There's a new election. Um, 8 that's why I brought the documentation for, you know, 9 the number of days I am there, the work that I've done, 10 uh, the letters corresponding with, you know, the amount 11 of training I give and the number of personnel. 12 Uh -- you know, I personally prepared documents 13 such as this for, uh -- for -- for, uh, law enforcement 14 training. But I consider everything that I've said, to 15 my knowledge, is completely honest and truthful. 16 And when I do travel, uh, it is strictly on, 17 uh, projects or matters concerning the reservation 18 directly, either on a membership or, you know, on a 19 specific project that will, uh, enhance the quality and 20 life of, uh, the people on the reservation. 21 MR. HORTON: Have you considered amending your 22 homeowner's exemption and your tax returns to reflect 23 that you -- 24 MR. MARTIN: Yes. Yes. 25 I -- you know, I apologize if I wasn't able to 26 dot every I and cross every T. 27 MR. HORTON: I mean subsequent. Subsequent. 28 MR. MARTIN: Some things you don't think of. 44 1 I have. I've contacted the, um -- uh, tax 2 property tax issue and asked if they'd put us in -- to 3 change -- remove that from that. 4 Also, I've -- the account that I use, I asked 5 that to be changed. And, also, with, um, homeowner's 6 policy as well. 7 Now I have -- I have another residence that 8 doesn't reflect on this. It's in -- it's in Nevada. 9 And, uh, on that, I'm listed as, you know, uh, 10 owner-occupied. But that doesn't concern this because 11 it came after 2005. 12 But, um, you know, it's kind of an education 13 going through something like this. You find out a lot 14 of things you don't realize. And, you know, you've been 15 so busy, focused on -- on projects, on things and 16 everything else that life throws at you. A lot of times 17 you're not able to look at every single thing and 18 anticipate what might be looked at by some governmental 19 agency or, you know, company down the road. 20 So you -- you try and do the best you can. Uh, 21 I try to be honest, as honest and forthright with, um, 22 the State auditors as possible. I've given them -- 23 whenever they contact me, I either respond 24 telephonically or by mail and explain to them, you know, 25 what they -- what they want, what I've done or how they 26 can get the information that they're, uh, requiring. 27 Uh, I try and do this within a week, week to 28 ten days after receiving something from them, I try and 45 1 immediately respond back to them. And I think I've been 2 very timely and cooperative with the State. And, uh, I 3 think, uh, overall I've met, uh, the burden of a 4 residency that, uh, I took for that particular year. 5 MR. HORTON: Okay. So, um, over the past seven 6 years, since 2005 -- 7 MR. MARTIN: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. HORTON: -- this being an issue and your 9 residency on the reservation being contested, mindful 10 that, uh, the Morongo Band of Mission Indians, in my 11 estimate, you know in my six, seven years of dealing 12 with them, are the most sophisticated -- uh, one of the 13 most sophisticated tribes out there, relative to their 14 business management and the tribal leadership are 15 extremely sophisticated. They're probably some of the 16 most knowledgeable, uh -- uh, individuals in Indian 17 country. And so, uh, very familiar with their 18 administrative system and so forth. 19 Have you sought to share with them the dilemma 20 that you face, and that a letter from them would kind of 21 resolve this if they could certify that you are -- were 22 a resident in 2005? 23 MR. MARTIN: What I did, when I was, uh, 24 talking to, uh, people that I went to, uh -- people that 25 prepare tax returns for the Tribe, that work, you know, 26 with members that, you know, come under situations like 27 this in a past. And I asked them, can I -- if I see -- 28 seek a letter from the Tribe, and they -- I was advised 46 1 by them and an attorney that, uh, State Franchise Tax 2 Board doesn't recognize a letter like that because it 3 could be just -- because, you know, it's from a relative 4 or a friend. 5 MR. HORTON: No. From -- from the Tribal 6 Council, the administration of the Tribe. 7 MR. MARTIN: I was -- I was told it wouldn't -- 8 it wouldn't do any good. 9 MR. HORTON: Department, would it do any good? 10 MS. MAGERS: It would certainly be a factor in 11 his favor if the -- especially since we did request the 12 letter and had not received it. 13 MR. MARTIN: Well, I never received a 14 correspondence like that. But I did tell them -- 15 MR. HORTON: Sir. I don't mean to interrupt 16 you. 17 MR. MARTIN: I'm sorry. 18 MR. HORTON: My apologies. 19 Um, you testified that you have attempted to 20 change your homeowner's reser -- uh, exemption, modify 21 or amend your tax returns to address the, uh -- the 22 issue there, and the other documents as well. 23 Do you have copies of letters sent to property 24 tax, copies of the amended tax return filed for 2005? 25 MR. MARTIN: No, I -- I didn't bring those with 26 me because I didn't anticipate that. 27 MR. HORTON: Is it available? 28 MR. MARTIN: I could look and see. But, um, 47 1 as, uh -- all my children now, one, are adults. They've 2 been -- you know, my youngest son now is, uh -- 3 MR. HORTON: Be mindful we're -- we're focusing 4 on 2005. 5 MR. MARTIN: Okay. Well, at this point, you 6 know, he's -- he was a -- he was an adult at that time. 7 He was -- let's see, he's 28 now, so that's seven years 8 ago. So he was 21. And my daughter's 30. 9 MR. HORTON: You still would have qualified. 10 If you provide over 50 percent of their, uh, income, you 11 would have qualified -- they would have qualified. 12 MR. MARTIN: I could -- 13 MR. HORTON: I mean, I think you were right in 14 claiming it. 15 MR. MARTIN: I mean, I think I could look into 16 it, sir. I can't give you, you know, a "yes" or "no" 17 answer on that because I didn't anticipate that question 18 coming up. 19 MR. HORTON: So if -- if the Board gave you 20 time to provide the Franchise Tax Board these documents, 21 uh, could you provide them? 22 MR. MARTIN: I could try, yeah. I could -- 23 there's, uh -- I've, uh -- 24 MR. HORTON: How about this, you have a copy of 25 your two thou -- you amended 2005 tax return? 26 MR. MARTIN: Um -- 27 MR. HORTON: Not with you. Not with you. 28 MR. MARTIN: Uh -- 48 1 MR. HORTON: Anywhere. 2 MR. MARTIN: I would have to look. I'm -- 3 I'm -- after all this, I'm sure I have it there 4 somewhere. I've got an entire stack of stuff that goes 5 back and forth with the State. 6 MR. HORTON: Okay. Thank you very much. 7 Uh, further discussion, Members? 8 MS. MANDEL: Sure. 9 MR. HORTON: Member Mandel. 10 MS. MANDEL: Um, I'm a little bit confused now 11 about banking at the reservation. Because, um, while 12 perhaps there was not a bank on the reservation, my 13 recollection from reading the material was that there 14 was something of a conflict. 15 I -- I vaguely -- I remember reading something 16 that said he didn't uh -- uh -- he didn't -- there -- he 17 didn't use an ATM around the reservation because there 18 was no ATM. Um, but then I also remember reading 19 something that said it was too expensive to use the ATM 20 at the reservation, which -- and an ATM may be different 21 than, you know, whether there's a bank. 22 Was there an ATM at the reservation? 23 MR. MARTIN: No, there was an ATM, but I didn't 24 use it. Well, when I say that, it was going to cost $10 25 to use it. I received small stipends for, you know, 26 this work here. 27 MS. MANDEL: Right, the checks. 28 MR. MARTIN: I just cashed those in lieu of 49 1 going to that. 2 And as a bank, I worked for the Los Angeles 3 Police Department for 25 years, and I've stayed with 4 them just because they have a history of it. They're 5 actually in downtown Los Angeles. 6 I almost never go to their office. Either it's 7 by e-mail or -- or regular mail or telephonically. 8 Everything can be conducted, so I don't really need like 9 a -- 10 MS. MANDEL: Physical bank. 11 MR. MARTIN: -- physical bank on the -- the 12 reservation. They take care of it there. 13 And I only requested them to send, uh, their 14 statements and things, when they did, to my home in 15 Huntington Beach because I feared, you know, it falling 16 into the wrong hands and being compromised for identity 17 theft, which has happened to me on two occas -- prior 18 occasions. 19 MS. MANDEL: Right. Okay. 20 And, um, before you bought the Huntington Beach 21 house, where did you -- where did you live? 22 MR. MARTIN: Oh, I rented a house. I was going 23 through a divorce. 24 MS. MANDEL: Right. But was it in the -- that 25 area? 26 MR. MARTIN: No -- 27 MS. MANDEL: I mean, was it -- was it in the 28 Banning area, San Bernardino, or was it down in -- 50 1 MR. MARTIN: No. 2 MS. MANDEL: -- the Los Angeles -- 3 MR. MARTIN: No, I lived in Los Angeles area. 4 MS. MANDEL: -- area. Okay. 5 And, um -- uh, I know we're focused on 2005. 6 Um, you bought the house in '99 or 2000. Um, I say '99 7 only because I think that's what Lexis shows, but you 8 remember 2000 time frame. 9 Um, where were you -- where were you living 10 and -- and did we have this residency issue, I guess is 11 kind of the question, for years before 2005, or did this 12 start with 2005? 13 MR. MARTIN: I can't recall when exactly it 14 started. You know, I didn't look into that. I was 15 just -- I've been focused on 2005. 16 MS. MANDEL: Okay. Where -- 17 MR. MARTIN: And I actually -- I claimed the 18 residence there in 2006 as well. 19 MS. MANDEL: Okay. 20 MR. MARTIN: But, uh, unfortunately that year I 21 had a catastrophic loss, so -- 22 MS. MANDEL: When you claimed the residence 23 there, what did you mean by "there"? What -- what was 24 the location? 25 MR. MARTIN: Oh, it was still the location, you 26 know, that I -- I claimed in 2005. 27 MS. MANDEL: Okay. Do -- was -- do we know 28 where, um -- I mean, I'm just curious about where -- 51 1 about your residency prior to 2005 because I see you 2 were elected to the Tribal Council. 3 MR. MARTIN: Well, no, I was -- 4 MS. MANDEL: Tribal Planning in 2000 -- end of 5 2002. 6 MR. MARTIN: It may very well have been 7 because, I -- like I said, I've done this extensively 8 for year after year after year. 9 But, you know -- but I can't travel that far on 10 a daily basis. I mean, it's too exhausting. I mean, 11 just coming here this morning, it was difficult. I was 12 on the freeway for three hours, and I only came, you 13 know -- you know, which I thought would be an hour. 14 MS. MANDEL: Okay. Let me -- let me change my, 15 um -- do we have the -- the tax filing? Or did you not 16 look for prior? 17 MS. MAGERS: Um, this is the first year that 18 audit was opened. 19 MS. MANDEL: Okay. 20 MS. MAGERS: And I did not look into previous 21 years. 22 MS. MANDEL: And -- and, um, the -- the tribal 23 ID card, um, the gentleman's saying that, uh, that the 24 Tribes don't just issue those in terms of -- of an 25 address. Um, what -- what, um -- what does FTB know or 26 make of the tribal ID card? 27 MS. MAGERS: As far as I was aware -- and this 28 is my third case with the, uh, Morongo Tribe -- the 52 1 tribal ID card doesn't ever have an issue date, so it 2 becomes an issue for these appeals. Uh, and it's 3 basically proof of enrollment in the Tribe. And we 4 accept it as proof and enrollment -- as enrollment of 5 the Tribe. 6 And the reason we ask for a letter from the 7 Tribe, stating that they lived on the reservation, uh, 8 is as a piece of support for residency on the 9 reservation. Uh, and I have received those letters in 10 other cases. 11 MS. MANDEL: Okay. 12 MR. HORTON: Question of the Department. Did 13 we request a letter? 14 MS. MAGERS: Yes. It's in the, um -- it's in 15 the first, initial mailing. 16 MR. HORTON: Question of the taxpayer. Any 17 banks in and around the reservation? 18 MR. MARTIN: Um, there's a small credit union 19 that's affiliated with, uh -- that has become -- I don't 20 know when it did, it's become affiliated with mine. 21 MR. HORTON: Traveling to the reservation, the 22 road that sort of leads up to the reservation, there are 23 about three banks. 24 MR. MARTIN: Oh, I mean, there's banks. I 25 mean, you can go anywhere in each city and find a bank. 26 But I've -- I've had a long history with this federal 27 credit union that I'm with, and I've kept -- 28 MR. HORTON: Prefer to bank with that one. 53 1 MR. MARTIN: And they have, uh -- they're 2 interconnected with a number of other credit unions 3 throughout the state and the country. So it -- I saw no 4 reason to, you know, sever the ties with them, 5 especially if they don't require, you know, going to 6 them, to, uh, you know, facilitate business or, you 7 know, conduct anything. 8 MR. HORTON: If you were allowed additional 9 time, could you put together a travel log that indicated 10 the number of days that you resided on the reservation 11 and possibly -- 12 MR. MARTIN: Well, I could, but it wouldn't -- 13 it wouldn't be an exact one, sir. 14 MR. HORTON: I mean, but it sounds as if though 15 your time on the reservation seems to correlate with 16 some specific activity. And so, for example, you serve 17 on a very -- a significant, uh, commission and that 18 commission would have met weekly and so forth, and all 19 this activity -- you're doing a fabulous job, by the 20 way. So all that activity, it coordinates to time that 21 you would have spent on the reservation. 22 That might be helpful in substantiating your 23 time if in fact we can get beyond the establishment of 24 residency. I mean, I believe that the law requires the 25 establishment of a -- of residency and then we get into 26 the preponderance of the evidence in trying to determine 27 primary residence. 28 So once we establish that you also have a 54 1 residence in Huntington Beach and you have a residence 2 on the reservation, now we get into the notion of where, 3 what's the primary residency. 4 So, um, any -- any thoughts on -- on 5 documentation that you could think of that might help 6 us? 7 MR. MARTIN: Well, I will try and secure 8 anything that you want, that I -- that I -- that I'm 9 able to obtain. 10 Uh, the -- what I've stated, you know, before 11 is, uh, I hope I've illustrated, you know, the amount of 12 time I spend there on the reservation. And because of 13 my health, I'm -- you know, it -- I -- I couldn't 14 commute 200 miles a day to, you know, do these things 15 and continue with them. It would be just too taxing. 16 But, as -- for looking for documents that 17 you've asked for, I will be happy to do so. And 18 anything you can -- you want me to do, I will, uh, 19 attempt in the best possible manner to get those to 20 you. 21 As to, uh, giving specific dates and times, 22 that will be -- that will be a little more difficult 23 because of the -- the records aren't kept that -- you 24 know, that long again. Um, but I will do whatever you, 25 uh, deem necessary. 26 MR. HORTON: Mr. Runner. 27 MR. RUNNER: Just, again, to clarify real 28 quick. The -- the missing element about residency, what 55 1 is that language exactly in terms of that requirement 2 for residency? 3 MS. MAGERS: I'm sorry, can you clarify? 4 MR. RUNNER: The language that -- there were 5 three elements that an individual must demonstrate. 6 MS. MAGERS: There's -- no. There's three that 7 they must demonstrate to, um, exclude their tribal 8 income? 9 MR. RUNNER: Right, right. 10 MS. MAGERS: Okay. 11 MR. RUNNER: And one of them is the issue of 12 residency? 13 MS. MAGERS: One is whether or not they resided 14 on or off, uh, the reservation. 15 MR. RUNNER: They reside on and off. 16 MS. MAGERS: They have to reside on the 17 reservation -- 18 MR. RUNNER: Right. 19 MS. MAGERS: -- to be able to exclude it. 20 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Again, the question I asked 21 that for is that there was a discussion just shortly 22 about primary. It doesn't necessarily require a primary 23 residence on the reservation by way of that, does it? 24 MS. MAGERS: That has been established, yes, in 25 case law. 26 MR. RUNNER: In case law. So primary is 27 established -- is, by case law, established? 28 MS. MAGERS: Mm-hmm. 56 1 MR. RUNNER: Not just residency but actual 2 primary residency is -- is -- is established by case 3 law? 4 MS. MAGERS: You know, I'm going -- actually, I 5 would like to take that back. I need to check on that. 6 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 7 MS. MAGERS: I believe so. 8 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So -- okay. So we need to 9 check on that. Because, again, if it's just residency, 10 you can have -- again, primary residency, a very 11 specific issue. Residency, you can have multiple 12 residencies. 13 MS. MAGERS: Correct. 14 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 15 MS. MAGERS: I will check -- 16 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 17 MS. MAGERS: -- on that issue and get back to 18 you on that. 19 MR. RUNNER: And let me just follow up on a 20 question that it seemed to me or discussion and thought 21 that the Chair was going down. And that is, maybe 22 giving some time for some elements and information. 23 It was your opinion, from what you had heard, 24 that FTB would not accept a letter from the tribal 25 authorities in regards to your residency on the -- on 26 the reservation. 27 MR. MARTIN: That's correct. 28 MR. RUNNER: Here you've heard differently. 57 1 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, because -- 2 MR. RUNNER: So if you had more time, would you 3 have been -- would you then be compelled to then help 4 them produce that particular kind of correspondence? 5 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 6 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. HORTON: Okay. Um, I might give a shot at 8 answering that question, legal question, if you will. 9 I really don't think that -- I mean, I think -- 10 I don't think the law requires that the resident on -- 11 the residency on the reservation has to be your primary 12 residence. I think it's -- but it's in -- it has to be 13 established that there is some residence there -- 14 MR. RUNNER: Yes. 15 MR. HORTON: -- before you start getting into 16 the measurement of whether or not it is your 17 residence. 18 MR. RUNNER: Right. 19 MR. HORTON: And so if it's not, it's not. And 20 thus, Tribal Council throughout the State of California, 21 very conscious of -- of making that determination, 22 because that determination fits into so many other, uh, 23 criteria that they are engaged in making their 24 assessments, uh, just internally. When you start 25 working with tribal government, it's the number of 26 individuals who are actually residents on the 27 reservation is something that they take very seriously. 28 Uh, so -- uh, maybe we can get a law. 58 1 MS. MANDEL: Mr. Horton. 2 MR. HORTON: I think. We typically defer to 3 Ms. Mandel in that. 4 MS. MANDEL: Um, Mr. Epolite, might have the 5 answer to your question. But, um -- um -- uh, you know, 6 I think we get into these situations that if people 7 actually have more than one residence -- 8 MR. HORTON: Residence. 9 MS. MANDEL: And, of course, first you have to 10 establish that you have a residence. Um -- uh, it was 11 my understanding, I know Franchise Tax Board got a 12 little -- it sounds like she got a little nervous, then 13 she's backing off because she's not totally, uh, sure 14 about primary residence. 15 Is there, um -- and perhaps Mr. Epolite has the 16 materials in front of him. It was my understanding, I 17 think we've had cases before where people have had 18 houses -- themselves had houses on and off. And the 19 question really was, well, where -- where -- where is it 20 that you -- 21 MR. HORTON: Live. 22 MS. MANDEL: -- live? Um, you know, is that 23 other one a second home, a vacation home? 24 But maybe I'm misremembering. So, Mr. Epolite, 25 do you -- 26 MR. EPOLITE: To qualify for the exclusion, the 27 tribal residence would have to be the primary 28 residence. 59 1 MS. MANDEL: Okay. 2 MR. HORTON: Okay. 3 MS. MANDEL: Okay. And I guess for Franchise 4 Tax Board as a -- as a last point, um, if the gentleman 5 was at his -- Ms. Helen Black's house for, um, you know, 6 three -- three days -- you know, if he was there during 7 the week and then Huntington Beach on the weekends, 8 um -- uh, does that necessarily show residency for these 9 purposes on the reservation? 10 MS. MAGERS: If he spent the working week on 11 the reservation and then went home for the weekend -- or 12 to his other residence for the weekend? 13 MS. MANDEL: Is that still -- that would still 14 be a factor. 15 MS. MAGERS: That would still be a factor, but 16 I mean -- 17 MS. MANDEL: We don't have any bright line 18 test. 19 MS. MAGERS: There's no bright line, but if he 20 could show five out of seven days per week -- 21 MS. MANDEL: Yeah, and -- 22 MS. MAGERS: -- residency, that would be a 23 factor. 24 MS. MANDEL: -- we don't want to really just 25 speculate. It's -- it's still a factor. 26 MS. MAGERS: Yes. 27 MS. MANDEL: Okay. And I -- and I -- um, I do 28 see that you have here your current, um, insurance 60 1 policy for Huntington Beach. And, um, I noticed under 2 the description it now says "premises rented to others 3 for sole use as a private residence," is what it looks 4 like on the declarations. 5 And this -- this letter that you have in here, 6 or that -- it looks like it's a letter. It's not signed 7 or anything, from the insurance agent, I mean, it's -- 8 is this the only -- 9 MR. MARTIN: That's the only one I have. 10 MS. MANDEL: -- copy? I mean everything -- all 11 of the letters are -- or most of them seem to be just 12 typed out and unsigned. So I don't really know -- 13 MR. MARTIN: No, they gave their contact 14 information. I'm sure that, you know, if you wanted to 15 get ahold of anybody, they -- they did put a manner in 16 which they could be contacted. 17 And one of them was signed. Mr. Schultze 18 signed his. And Mr. Mike Levine signed his. 19 MS. MANDEL: Yeah. The -- the -- most of these 20 I think we had before. I don't -- I don't -- I don't 21 recall seeing the insurance. 22 MR. MARTIN: And for the last couple of years, 23 I have, uh -- uh, utilized the Huntington Beach 24 residence as my primary residence because of the health 25 issue. I went to the hospital on a routine, uh, 26 outpatient procedure, and I woke up seven days later in 27 intensive care, with, uh -- after receiving 15 blood 28 transfusions, for the cardiac condition I described. 61 1 So I -- I -- I've stayed there, you know, a lot 2 for the last couple of years. Now I'm finally getting 3 back to some normalcy in my life. So I'm doing more 4 work on the reservation. But during the last few years, 5 I have, um, paid, you know, State income tax and, uh, 6 you know, tried to meet every requirement, as I've 7 always done. I've tried to be as forthright and honest 8 with the State as possible. 9 And I've, you know, uh -- and everything I've 10 been told and advised by what I consider experts -- 11 lawyers, tax accountants, uh, people from the Franchise 12 Tax Board, the property division -- they -- I take 13 their -- their advice seriously. And that's why I've 14 done this. 15 And, you know, when I -- when I went back to 16 Huntington Beach because of the medical condition where 17 I couldn't really leave, you know, I claimed that from 18 the State. I didn't try and, you know, uh, continue 19 anything. I was, you know, very forthright and honest 20 and, as I said, I paid the taxes. I -- I just paid the 21 first one for this -- for last year. For this year I 22 paid it. 23 So I'm, uh -- what I'm just trying to say is 24 everything I've done, you know, I've tried to give you 25 the best, clearest interpretation of what I saw and was 26 explained to by every official that I ran into. And I 27 tried to do everything I could correctly to satisfy the 28 State's conditions and, uh, the criteria they asked 62 1 for. 2 MR. HORTON: Thank you. 3 Ms. Mandel? 4 MS. MANDEL: No, that's it. Thanks. 5 MR. HORTON: Further discussion, Members? 6 Hearing none, uh, is there a motion? 7 MS. YEE: Move to take the matter under 8 submission. 9 MR. HORTON: Moved by Member Yee to take the 10 matter under submission. Second by Member Runner. 11 Without objection, such will be the order. 12 Thank you very much for appearing before us 13 today. We certainly appreciate your testimony. 14 MR. MARTIN: Again, thank you for your time and 15 consideration in this. 16 MR. HORTON: The Board will take your matter 17 under consideration, uh, later on this afternoon and 18 send you a written report of your -- of our decision. 19 ---oOo--- 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 63 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, KATHLEEN SKIDGEL, Hearing Reporter for the 8 California State Board of Equalization certify that on 9 April 24, 2012 I recorded verbatim, in shorthand, to the 10 best of my ability, the proceedings in the 11 above-entitled hearing; that I transcribed the shorthand 12 writing into typewriting; and that the preceding pages 1 13 through 63 constitute a complete and accurate 14 transcription of the shorthand writing. 15 16 Dated: May 7, 2012 17 18 19 ____________________________ 20 KATHLEEN SKIDGEL, CSR #9039 21 Hearing Reporter 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 64