1 BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OF EQUALIZATION 2 450 N STREET 3 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 4 5 6 7 8 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT 9 SEPTEMBER 21, 2011 10 11 12 13 14 15 ITEM P5.1.a 16 ADMINISTRATION DEPUTY DIRECTOR'S REPORT 17 FACIILTIES UPDATE 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 REPORTED BY: Kathleen Skidgel CSR NO. 9039 27 Juli Price Jackson 28 CSR NO. 5214 1 1 P R E S E N T 2 3 For the Board Jerome E. Horton of Equalization: Chairman 4 Michelle Steel 5 Vice-Chairwoman 6 Betty T. Yee Member 7 George Runner 8 Member 9 Marcy Jo Mandel Appearing for John Chiang, 10 State Controller (per Government Code 11 Section 7.9) 12 Diane G. Olson Chief, 13 Board Proceedings Division 14 For Board of Equalization Staff: Liz Houser 15 Deputy Director Administration 16 17 Speakers: Nick Carlson Department of General 18 Services 19 Steven Davis LaCroix Davis 20 Brian Daly 21 Hygiene Technology, Inc. 22 Steven Alari SEIU Local 1000 23 District Labor Council 782 24 25 ---oOo--- 26 27 28 2 1 450 N STREET 2 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 3 SEPTEMBER 21, 2011 4 ---oOo--- 5 MR. HORTON: Ms. Olson. 6 MS. OLSON: Our next item is P5, 7 Administration's Deputy Director's Report. The first 8 item is P5.1, Facilities Update. 9 MR. HORTON: Members, before us is Ms. Houser, 10 Deputy Director of Administration Department. 11 And please introduce your associates. 12 MS. HOUSER: Good afternoon, Chairman Horton 13 and Members. 14 With me today are Nick Carlson from the 15 Department of General Services, Steven Davis from 16 LaCroix Davis, and Brian Daly from Hygiene Technology, 17 Incorporated. 18 Um, as reported on the building website in the 19 spring of this year, DGS's Industrial Hygienist LaCroix 20 Davis reported the discovery of visible mold growth in 21 the heating, ventilation, and air-conditioning system at 22 the 450 N Street building. 23 Uh, Mr. Carlson and these subject matter 24 experts are here today to present their findings and 25 their plans to address this issue in a manner that 26 ensures the health and safety of BOE's employees and 27 safeguards our core business function of providing over 28 one-third of the state's revenues. 3 1 Mr. Carlson. 2 MR. CARLSON: Thank you, Board Members, for 3 allowing me to present today. 4 My name is Nick Carlson. I'm the Chief from 5 the Project Management branch within Department of 6 General Services. I also have Ted Park, Deputy Director 7 from General Services' Real Estate Services division 8 here as well. 9 Um, I also -- as Ms. Houser pointed out, we 10 have members from, um, our Industrial Hygienist team, 11 LaCroix Davis, who will speak in a moment, as well as 12 BOE's Industrial Hygienist, Hygiene Tech, who will 13 follow me in a moment. 14 Um, as you know, DGS is working on the water 15 intrusion and mold remediation project since October of 16 2007. During the course of this project, we have 17 removed and replaced various components within this 18 building to address the water intrusion and mold 19 remediation. 20 While the project's main focus has been on 21 these two areas, we are also addressing other issues 22 discovered during the process -- uh, during this 23 process, such as the remediation of floor tile and 24 adhesive in various locations within the building. 25 We are currently in the latter stages of the 26 overall project, with the main focus now on the mold 27 discovery within the HVAC ducts. I will let Steven 28 Davis from LaCroix Davis and Brian Daly from Hygiene 4 1 Tech speak on this issue as well as the risk and safety 2 to the staff of the BOE building. 3 After the presentation, I'll follow up with my 4 next steps on moving forward, uh, with work in this 5 building. 6 MR. HORTON: Welcome. Would you please 7 introduce yourself for the record. 8 MR. DAVIS: Yes. Uh, my name is Steve Davis, 9 and I'm principal, uh, with the firm of LaCroix Davis. 10 And I thank you for the opportunity to speak with the 11 Board again. I addressed the Board in June -- on June 12 9th, 2009, gave a status report of the investigation at 13 that time. 14 What brings us here today is, as has been 15 mentioned, was the discovery of mold growth in the fan 16 room, uh, and the subsequent investigation that was 17 conducted by both ourselves, with LaCroix Davis, and 18 Hygiene Technologies and Brian Daly's -- uh, Brian 19 Daly's firm. Uh, we collaborate. We discovered this, 20 uh, growth. We collaborated on the design of the, uh, 21 investigation, the implementation, and the 22 interpretation of the results. 23 We are also going to collaborate on the 24 presentation. I'm -- basically I've got about five 25 parts to this presentation; just give you a general 26 description of the issue; the key questions we felt that 27 need to be answered; the HVAC investigation itself; and 28 then Brian will pick up with the investigation findings 5 1 and what we plan to do in the future. So that's kind of 2 the layout. 3 First thing with regard the history, and I had 4 said it at that time, uh, back in June 2009, that the 5 air samples in the building throughout -- taken 6 throughout the building have been unremarkable and that 7 there, uh, did not seem to be any increase in health 8 risks to the employees based on the sampling that was 9 conducted up to that point in time. That statement 10 would still be, uh, appropriate to make today. So I'm 11 just kind of restating that. 12 And, uh, then -- then what are the questions 13 that we needed to address? Uh, there were four as I 14 mentioned. How extensive is the mold growth within the 15 HVAC systems? That's an acronym for the heating, uh, 16 ventilation, and air-conditioning system. What types of 17 mold growth are found within the HVAC? Has the air 18 quality in the BOE building been compromised by this 19 growth? What are the potential health and safety risks 20 to employees? 21 Uh, how extensive is the mold growth? 22 Principally, the mold growth occurs more heavily just 23 downstream of the fans and the coils, and that's where 24 the air handlers begin the air movement. There is some 25 mold growth that is found throughout the system. Uh, 26 the types we -- somewhat to our surprise as we began our 27 investigation, discovered that we focused in using 28 actually DNA analysis techniques, uh, on a specific 6 1 genus and species. And, uh, I got nominated to talk 2 here because I could pronounce Cladosporium 3 Sphaerospermum. And that's -- that's the little beast 4 that we found. 5 And we basically took our investigation through 6 the entire system; uh, starting with the fan room, main 7 air ducts, supply ducts, down the verticals, up and down 8 the building, out laterals, and even to the diffusers. 9 And that was to characterize the extent, if any, that 10 this -- the growth had occurred. 11 And then we also, uh, concurrently were 12 monitoring the, uh, air quality itself, again, using 13 very advanced techniques. Uh, we took, in total, with 14 bulk, tape lift, uh, microvac samples, etcetera, a 15 little under 300 samples throughout the building to come 16 to some answers that we feel pretty comfortable with our 17 understanding. 18 And with that, I'd like to turn it over to 19 Brian. 20 MR. DALY: Good afternoon, um, Mr. Chairman and 21 Board Members. 22 My name is Brian Daly. I'm President of 23 Hygiene Technologies. And my firm has done, uh, 24 extensive air monitoring in this very building, uh, for 25 you since late 2007. And throughout that entire time we 26 found acceptable, uh, indoor air quality in all of the, 27 uh, work areas, um, outside the abatement enclosures. 28 Um, with the discovery of this one genus and 7 1 species within the HVAC system, we wanted to know 2 whether that particular organism was being transmitted 3 to other building areas. And the answer is no, 4 fortunately. 5 Um, the Cladosporium Sphaerospermum, uh, 6 variety is not particularly common. It's not completely 7 rare. I mean, it -- it's outside and it's inside. Um, 8 the levels are low. The levels in your HVAC system are 9 pretty high in some areas. And that means that that 10 organism is being cultured within the confines of the 11 HVAC system. 12 Fortunately though, the organisms are staying 13 in the HVAC system and they're not being transferred, 14 uh, to other areas, at least as of right now. 15 This season -- we just made the discovery 16 recently, and we immediately started monitoring. And we 17 have good results, uh, so far. But it is possible that 18 other organisms may grow during other seasons. Um, it's 19 also possible that, uh, with the change in relative 20 humidity on the outside of this building, that we could 21 get changes, uh, to the growth patterns inside the HVAC 22 system and that could lead to changes to the indoor air 23 quality. 24 So our suggestion, our recommendation here, is 25 that monitoring be done at least quarterly to address 26 this issue, to see if we do have any changes in the 27 indoor air quality. 28 Um, if that is done and a year from now I have 8 1 the opportunity to sit before you again and the answer 2 is still the same, that there is no change in the indoor 3 air quality, then I would recommend that we just monitor 4 the situation. 5 Um, it -- it would seem that, because of the 6 design of the HVAC system, that you're going to get some 7 growth of molds in there. Um, the environmental 8 condition within the HVAC system must be so stable that 9 you're only getting one species of growth; that's not 10 common. If you had a water intrusion situation, you 11 would get growth of many different types of mold 12 organisms. Not so in your HVAC system though. We're 13 only finding one. 14 Um, so we have our target, and we plan to look 15 for that target, um, through the four seasons, uh, to 16 see if we've got a problem. Thus far we do not. 17 Thank you. Any questions for either myself or 18 Mr. Davis? 19 MR. HORTON: Well, does that conclude your 20 presentation? 21 MR. DALY: That concludes my section, yes. 22 MR. HORTON: All right. 23 Discussion, Members? 24 MS. STEEL: So, um, you want to do quarterly 25 test to find out there's more coming out or not. Why we 26 have to be, um -- why cannot be little more proactive 27 and get rid of it and clean the vents, uh, so everybody 28 feels comfortable and safe here? 9 1 It seems like we just waiting until something, 2 you know, more grow inside of the vent, then we're going 3 to, you know, move. Just doesn't make any sense to 4 us. 5 MR. DALY: Well, I understand. Um, there is -- 6 there's one health and safety factor that is paramount 7 of importance to me. Uh, the mold growth organisms are 8 tiny, and they give off spores when disturbed. If the 9 HVAC system is cleaned -- and I should also say, and I 10 don't think we mentioned yet, the growth is on the 11 insulation within the confines of the duct work in part 12 of your system. It's not on -- it's not on the smooth 13 steel or plastic surfaces. It's embedded in a high 14 surface area insulation, lots of nooks and crannies, and 15 the growth is there. 16 My concern with cleaning at this time is if 17 that material is dislodged, the insulation is either 18 taken out completely or the insulation is cleaned, 19 that's going to bring spore counts up into the air, and 20 that may lead to circulation of that organism in the 21 building. 22 MS. STEEL: So it's the same as asbestos, that 23 you don't want to touch it and you don't want to just -- 24 just leave it as is. And then, you know, if you want to 25 fix it, then at that point you want to clean it. 26 How safe is it for the staff here in this 27 building then? 28 MR. DALY: Um, Cladosporium is, hands down, the 10 1 most common airborne mold spore type. It's the most 2 common airborne type outside and inside, in normal 3 buildings. 4 The one species that we're talking about, 5 though, is not particularly common. Cladosporium is the 6 genus name, and there are some subtypes within that -- 7 within that family. 8 Um, it's not particularly common, that one 9 species. But I know of no additional, uh, ill effects 10 over -- for that particular species, over the other 11 species that are much more common. They're all 12 Cladosporium types. 13 Um, Cladosporium can be allergenic. It can 14 cause allergy symptoms in some people. But the -- with 15 respect to the indoor air quality in this building, if 16 people have no effects outside of this building, that 17 when they -- when they come into the building, they 18 still will have no ill effects because the levels of 19 this one variety that we're talking about is the same 20 inside as it is outside. 21 MS. STEEL: So every quarterly test, if you 22 find out others in there, then what happen? 23 MR. DALY: If the indoor air quality is below 24 standard because of this situation, then I would be 25 compelled to recommend cleaning. Or some action would 26 need to, um, occur with respect to the HVAC system to 27 get rid of the source. 28 MS. STEEL: So what you are saying is quarterly 11 1 test is enough, the quarterly test is enough to see. 2 MR. DALY: Yes, in my opinion. 3 MR. DAVIS: Um, I would say that -- that we 4 didn't get a chance to confer on this. 5 We are suggesting, with regard to monitoring -- 6 not in any way to one-up -- but just to -- to do 7 monthly, but not do every floor. And then we -- by 8 that, and we can just sit down and work that one 9 through. That will be fairly easy to -- to resolve. 10 Certainly the recommendation, a little more frequent 11 monitoring would be desirable, I think, on all 12 parties. 13 The other thing is let me just talk for a 14 moment about this particular genus and species of mold. 15 It turns out it was new to all of us. We had not gone 16 that deep. We'd not found this kind of result. But as 17 we, uh -- as the two companies, in fact, began to 18 investigate this, we find that this particular genus and 19 species is quite commonly found in HVAC systems. That 20 apparently that there -- that this seems to be a -- 21 there's a niche in the system, uh, that allows this 22 particular genus and species to grow. That's -- that's 23 number one. 24 So we -- we don't know that we're particularly 25 unique in this building. We just know that we have it 26 in this building. 27 The second is that, uh, as Brian mentioned, 28 based on the research and talking to various experts, 12 1 about the only effect this can have is an allergenic 2 effect. And then you have to have a person that is -- 3 is going to react just to this little -- this genus and 4 species. 5 So it -- it seems, one, it is -- it is not 6 uncommon to find it in HVAC systems, important finding. 7 And, two, it is the only, uh, thing that we're aware of 8 in terms of health effect would be an allergic reaction. 9 And you'd have to have somebody specifically reacting to 10 this genus and species. 11 MS. STEEL: So this -- this came out only the 12 first time that we found it. Because it seems like 13 we've been doing testing for how many years now? But 14 this is the first time we found this kind of, uh -- I 15 don't know what you guys can pronounce it. But this 16 thing, that the first time we found it, this -- 17 MR. DAVIS: That is correct. We -- we had not 18 gone into the -- the building HVAC system itself. We've 19 been much more focused on -- on the occupied areas 20 rather than the mechanical. It's not like we ignored 21 them, but we were much more focused on the occupied 22 areas, the folks that work here, that visit here, and 23 how -- how they're doing. 24 Uh, we -- we were doing work in the mechanical 25 rooms, and that's when we discovered that there was some 26 growth, and that led us down through this more thorough 27 investigation. 28 MR. DALY: I'll add one thing as well. The 13 1 typical tests that are done, not only in this building 2 but throughout -- throughout the United States, um, that 3 we've done for years in this building is called a spore 4 trap analysis. And a spore trap analysis is not the DNA 5 analysis. 6 We did the DNA analysis, um, in this 7 investigation in order to identify which species of 8 Cladosporium we were dealing with. That was an 9 important test to do. Um, so now we have identified the 10 species, um, pursuant to the discovery of the mold 11 growth in the HVAC system. 12 Um, there was no need to do the DNA, uh, tests 13 prior, uh, to the discovery because we didn't need to 14 know the species, or there was no reason that we felt we 15 needed to know the species, uh, of the various mold 16 organisms. 17 MS. STEEL: Okay. I'm done now. I want to 18 hear other people's questions, too. 19 MR. HORTON: Sure. Member Yee, then Member 20 Runner. 21 MS. YEE: I think Mr. Runner was ahead of me. 22 MR. HORTON: He was? 23 MR. RUNNER: Oh, thank you. 24 MR. HORTON: Wait a minute. I got to flip a 25 coin. 26 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 27 MR. HORTON: No, okay. 28 MR. RUNNER: Just to Ms. Houser, um, the folks 14 1 that are -- help me understand exactly who we have 2 before us right now. These folks are all DGS and DGS 3 consultants, correct? 4 MS. HOUSER: Uh, Mr. Carlson works for DGS. 5 MR. RUNNER: Uh-huh. 6 MS. HOUSER: Mr. Davis is DGS's consultant -- 7 MR. RUNNER: Yes. 8 MS. HOUSER: -- for Industrial Hygienist, the 9 Hygiene Tech -- Industrial Hygienist's recommendations. 10 And then Mr. Daly is actually -- uh, his firm 11 is under contract to BOE. 12 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 13 MS. HOUSER: We hired our own Hygienist to be 14 able to give us advice and counsel -- 15 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 16 MS. HOUSER: -- in regard to the safety of our 17 employees. 18 MR. RUNNER: Good. Good. I just wanted to 19 kind of get who's representing what at that point to 20 help me -- help me through this -- this -- this part of 21 the discussion. Because again, you know, I -- I -- you 22 know, I look at this as DGS kind of has a building 23 problem in the simplest form. Now I know your concern 24 goes beyond that. And we end up with much more of a 25 people and mission problem, I think, because we're 26 trying to work our way -- work our way through this. 27 Um, and so it's -- it's really important for me 28 that we are assured that indeed, as we go down this 15 1 path, that both our people and, therefore, our mission 2 is protected, uh, in that regard. Obviously, you know, 3 a whole series of history issues dealing with that -- 4 dealing with the building and whatnot, trying to get 5 through that, how that interrupts both our people and -- 6 and then our mission. 7 Um, so I guess I'll go back to our consultant 8 then in regards to the recommendation and just kind of, 9 again, have you then tell us and say that right now, 10 based upon your observations, in terms of our role of 11 employee protection and, uh, concern at that point, that 12 you feel confident that the quarterly testing at this 13 point satisfies what it is that we would need to be 14 doing to protect our employees. 15 MR. DALY: That's right. I have a staff member 16 in the BOE building every day. 17 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 18 MR. DALY: And we do monitoring of varying 19 types. 20 Um, in order to address the growth patterns 21 within the HVAC system and the -- the general indoor air 22 quality impact because of that growth, I'm recommending 23 quarterly because I suspect that we might have seasonal 24 changes. 25 All occupied areas of the building should be 26 represented by a sample. Literally, we're not going to 27 take a sample in every office. 28 MR. RUNNER: Mm-hmm. 16 1 MR. DALY: But, you know, in all areas of the 2 building. And -- but there's not going to be any breaks 3 in between the seasonal, uh, sampling. That'll just be 4 one objective that we do, uh, for the next three 5 quarters. 6 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. HORTON: Member Yee. 8 MS. YEE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 Um, I wanted to follow up on a point that Ms. 10 Steel had raised. And, um, I just want to avoid any 11 confusion. Maybe we can be clear about what we're doing 12 going forward. 13 I actually thought we had had a full building 14 assessment after our initial mold issue. And what 15 surprises me about the attention now about what's been 16 discovered in the HVAC system is that as we were looking 17 at new sites -- and I remember being on the ground 18 looking at HVAC systems and learned a lot about HVAC 19 systems in office buildings as we were looking at other 20 sites. And so I'm surprised that the initial assessment 21 didn't get that deep into our building systems. 22 And so I just want to understand, um, are we 23 going to have compromises in any other systems in this 24 building? I know we've had a lot water-related issues 25 and we've been around the whole -- the various areas 26 that have been, um, compromised or potentially 27 compromised by water damage that may lead to our mold 28 issue. 17 1 But, uh, it's not comforting to kind of hear 2 this right now. And even though the effect may be 3 minimal, and the focus had been on the occupied areas 4 where our employees were most directly affected, uh, 5 this is a little disconcerting to me. 6 The second point I want to make is I really 7 would like to re-engage our, um, employee 8 representatives in any discussion about the building. I 9 really had thought that we were kind of on a trajectory 10 of where we were getting some of these issues resolved. 11 But it sounds like we're going to continue to monitor, 12 and there may be new things discovered along the way. 13 But, uh, I certainly -- Mr. Alari is standing 14 in the aisle. But this is going to require, I think 15 again, having a very, uh, formal process of how we keep 16 our employees informed about what's -- what's 17 happening. 18 MS. HOUSER: Yes. Ms. Yee, to try to -- I'll 19 try to respond to the first question. And I'll probably 20 ask, uh, Mr. Carlson and/or Mr. Davis to respond to that 21 because we have had a number of assessments -- 22 MS. YEE: Mm-hmm. 23 MS. HOUSER: -- on this building. Those were 24 contracts that were overseen by DGS. So they identified 25 the scope of work and the areas that -- that would be 26 looked into. 27 Um, so I think they would be best to speak to 28 what they requested as far as a full review of the 18 1 building to identify all mold, because that's what we 2 were under the impression we were getting. So we were 3 also surprised to find that the HVAC system, um, had not 4 been that deeply explored in that first go-around. 5 Um, and as you said, Mr. Alari is here from 6 SEIU to speak shortly after the, uh -- after, uh, DGS 7 has an opportunity to respond to that first question. 8 But we, um, have been engaged with -- continued 9 engagement with SEIU, and it has increased more in the 10 last few weeks as we've had additional problems. 11 Because we were also hoping that we were on the end of 12 this, uh, construction zone. 13 MS. YEE: Well, and before you comment, if you 14 could include in your comments -- I think Ms. Steel has 15 exactly the point that we're all interested in. That 16 is, um, we don't want to be taken by surprise. To the 17 extent that there are proactive measures that we can 18 take, and if there are assessments that still need to be 19 done, I would like to have those identified for us so 20 that we know what has not been examined and where there 21 might be some additional issues. 22 But, um, I mean, certainly sitting here, from 23 my perspective, I really had thought that we had made 24 that full building assessment. 25 MR. CARLSON: Uh, what I can say is DGS was 26 brought in to deal with the water intrusion and the 27 mold-related issues that were specific in -- in those 28 areas. Um, the HVAC issue, quite frankly, I think is a 19 1 surprise to everybody, including our Industrial 2 Hygienist team as well. 3 Um, through the course of a project, normally a 4 project has a defined scope. Um, being an investigation 5 project like this is that we -- we kind of have a 6 building and we have -- an investigation has to take 7 place. Through the course of kind of winding our way 8 through the different floors within the building and 9 kind of chasing where we saw stains or water leaks led 10 to the discovery of the condition within the mold -- 11 within the vents as well. 12 So, at this point I -- I can only say that we 13 think right now that the HVAC system is probably the one 14 remaining area that we just did not know about and did 15 not expect, um, and we're moving forward to, uh -- to 16 closing that issue. 17 MS. YEE: How can that be? You had staff at 18 DGS escort us to see office locations where the primary 19 focus was the integrity of the HVAC system in these 20 buildings. So I -- 21 MR. DAVIS: May I speak to this? 22 MS. YEE: Please. 23 MR. DAVIS: Because we were tasked to do, uh, 24 preliminary water damage assessment, the water damage 25 assessment. And in general, that building assessment 26 initially was nondestructive in nature. And, in fact, 27 when I reported on the status of our findings in June of 28 2009, I talked about that, categorized it, the generally 20 1 occupied areas, the mechanical systems areas like the 2 penthouse and -- and the mechanical floor, and 3 inaccessible areas, those sorts of -- of -- of -- and 4 custodial areas. 5 Um, I want to emphasize it was nondestructive; 6 that's number one. 7 Number two -- 8 MS. YEE: What does that mean? 9 MR. DAVIS: I'll come back to why that 10 becomes -- 11 MS. YEE: Could you define what that means? 12 MR. DAVIS: -- why that's important. 13 MR. DALY: Nondestructive. 14 MR. DAVIS: Nondestructive. 15 In order for us -- uh, that's one. But the 16 other is just to say that this condition may well not 17 have existed two years ago. Uh, mold spores in the 18 climate in the environment changes. That's just exactly 19 what Brian was saying from time -- you know, from 20 seasonally and in -- and in a day by day. 21 Now, why is nondestructive important? We took 22 some samples in the fan room, and that began to cause us 23 to ask questions, uh, about that. In order to 24 accomplish this task, we actually had to cut into these 25 duct fans, order -- I understand special doors had to 26 come from, uh, another part of the country to have them 27 installed. 28 This -- this was a planned event that was not 21 1 of minor consequence to get this -- to get in to the 2 area where we found this, and then go further and ask 3 the questions for ourselves; uh, we're seeing mold 4 growth, we better ask more detailed questions. That 5 means take another sample, get it to the laboratory, and 6 get down to the point where we're finding this -- 7 this -- this particular genus and species. 8 So, uh, one, we don't know whether the 9 condition existed a year ago, two years ago. We suspect 10 it may, but we have no evidence to -- to support that. 11 Two, it is -- it really meant that we were cutting into 12 building systems and going into chases and doing this 13 and that, which was never anticipated in the water 14 intrusion survey, which was, is water coming in from the 15 building, outside, and was it being spilled? You know, 16 plumbing problems. 17 MS. YEE: I don't find that to be a very 18 satisfactory response, but I appreciate the, uh, 19 background. 20 I guess what I would ask, Mr. Chairman, is if 21 we could have, um -- I mean, what I'd like to know and 22 understand is, um, what are we lacking in terms of all 23 of our systems having been examined and, uh -- and 24 tested? And maybe the testing isn't appropriate right 25 now. It sounds like with this HVAC situation and the 26 new genus that's been discovered, it's, um, something 27 we're going to have to monitor. 28 Um, but the fact of the matter is, we didn't go 22 1 into the HVAC system in terms of our prior testing. And 2 so I just would like to have the confidence in knowing 3 that this building has been looked into, up and down and 4 deeply, to be sure that there are not going to be any 5 other types of compromises. 6 Um, we're always kind of chasing our tail. I 7 mean, luckily, this sounds like it's something that 8 perhaps it's not going to have as major of an impact on 9 our employees and our operations, but we don't know. We 10 don't know. 11 I think it affects everything we do. You're 12 going to ask us to approve budget proposals. I don't 13 know how to look at that right now, with all of this 14 going on and maybe more. 15 So -- but I would say, at the very least, we 16 need to keep our employees informed about what is 17 happening. Okay. 18 MR. HORTON: Yes. I certainly concur with 19 that. 20 When does it end? 21 MS. YEE: Yeah. 22 MS. MANDEL: Yeah, really. 23 MS. YEE: I mean, it feels -- here's what it 24 feels like to me. It feels like we're treating the 25 symptoms of a patient that's got multiple problems, and 26 we're not getting to kind of the -- the -- the root 27 cause. 28 And -- and I get that General Services has got 23 1 a job to do. They've had a scope of work. But frankly, 2 scope of work is only as good as just addressing, you 3 know, kind of a symptom that's presented to you. 4 MR. CARLSON: Correct. That's correct. So we 5 need to find the symptom, which -- which we've just 6 discovered in the HVAC system. So we're, at this point, 7 trying to determine whether or not it is a -- how long 8 it's been in there, which we may not ever find out, but 9 we do know how to address, uh, moving forward. 10 MS. YEE: But can we kind of look at the 11 building as a little bit more holistically and be 12 proactive about other systems that we need to examine, 13 so that we can understand what possibly may come up? 14 MR. DAVIS: I -- I might mention something I 15 failed to mention -- 16 MS. YEE: Uh-huh. 17 MR. DAVIS: -- because I was trying to be 18 brief. As we're discussing this, we're talking about 19 what we've referred to as the tower. But there's 20 actually two other, uh, ventilation systems on the first 21 floor. And we've investigated those, and those seem to 22 be free of this condition. 23 MS. YEE: Okay. 24 MR. DAVIS: So we -- it's a very large 25 building. It's actually multiple buildings and multiple 26 systems and lots of parts to it. And we -- as I say, we 27 are trying to be as thorough and systematic and 28 collaborative, which is very important because it's 24 1 better to have multiple thought processes. 2 MS. YEE: No, I would agree. And I appreciate 3 the collaboration. 4 MS. MANDEL: So -- 5 MS. YEE: But my request is, can -- what are 6 the gaps in terms of what we haven't looked at? 7 MS. MANDEL: Is there a list? You want a list 8 of the systems in the building? 9 MS. YEE: Yeah, whether it's plumbing, HVAC, 10 whatever. 11 MS. MANDEL: And there may be a reason that 12 they have of why they didn't do that one. Like they say 13 they didn't do HVAC because it was -- it would be 14 destructive or something. 15 MS. YEE: And I'm not -- 16 MS. MANDEL: I don't know what. But you just 17 want a list so that you know -- 18 MS. YEE: Yeah. 19 MS. MANDEL: -- what things haven't actually -- 20 MS. YEE: Exactly. 21 MR. CARLSON: We can do that. 22 MS. YEE: So maybe next time we hear about 23 something, I'm not sitting here in such shock. 24 MR. CARLSON: Yeah. Again, what we were tasked 25 to do was deal with the water intrusion -- 26 MS. YEE: I get what you've dealt with. 27 MR. CARLSON: -- and the mold was associated 28 with -- 25 1 MS. YEE: No, I understand that. I understand 2 that. 3 What else needs to be examined? Think 4 proactively ahead. 5 MR. CARLSON: Okay. 6 MS. YEE: Okay. 7 MR. HORTON: I think in light -- I mean, in 8 light of this new evidence, uh, there are a couple of 9 factors that we ought to take in consideration in 10 addition to those as we move forward. Um, the experts 11 have testified that, um, this could be a new problem. 12 MS. MANDEL: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. HORTON: And so -- and it could not have 14 existed two years ago. 15 MS. YEE: But they didn't look. 16 MR. HORTON: And so, presuming that that could 17 be true, there's some concerns about what is 18 perpetuating the problem? Is there a catalyst? Is 19 there -- what is the genesis of this? Because I 20 understand and certainly appreciate dealing with the 21 symptoms. But until you deal with the genesis of this, 22 uh, the symptoms just won't go away. Because, I mean, 23 this is a building. It's not going to heal itself. Uh, 24 it's going to be incumbent upon us to do that. 25 And so therein is the concern. And possibly 26 maybe -- I mean, as experts in the field, you've dealt 27 with this before. Uh, and based on your experience, is 28 there -- is there, uh -- can you articulate what you 26 1 believe, uh, may be perpetuating these concerns? Or do 2 you think it's normal or is something that has a start 3 and -- a genesis, and there are catalysts that exist? 4 There are situations that exist that will continue to 5 perpetuate these types of concerns, and we have not 6 addressed those and we need to address it? 7 We can't go in and -- and remediate at this 8 point because of the concern about it spreading, which 9 makes perfectly good sense. But there are some natural 10 and -- components that could very well cause this to be 11 a problem. I mean, we could have a shutdown, uh, and 12 then it -- uh, of the system and then it kicks back in. 13 Oh, all of a sudden we've got a problem. Uh, an 14 earthquake could cause a problem. A, uh -- a change in 15 the weather could cause a problem that we're not aware 16 of. 17 And so based on your expertise, uh, what is the 18 genesis? What are the catalysts? What's -- what's -- 19 not the symptoms, but what's causing this? 20 MR. DALY: I would not change a word that I -- 21 that -- in your last statement. You got every point 22 right on the money. 23 The genesis of the problem is moisture. 24 MR. HORTON: Just what -- 25 MR. DALY: Moisture. 26 MR. HORTON: Moisture. 27 MR. DALY: Moisture is getting into the system, 28 perhaps, um, from the outside, fog, uh, moist air. And 27 1 also, when you condition air, you dry it. Water is 2 pulled out of the air system. And that water has to go 3 somewhere. 4 So I suspect two things are relevant here. Too 5 much moisture is being drawn into your HVAC system, uh, 6 from the outside, and the condensate that is formed when 7 the air is being conditioned is perhaps not being, uh, 8 segregated and it's being allowed to travel, touch, uh, 9 insulating surfaces. And then the mold spore that is 10 viable, and also comes in from the outside and may nest 11 there, starts to grow when that environmental condition 12 is just right. 13 If we eliminate the moisture so that the 14 insulation is too dry to grow, then that's as good as it 15 gets. And, uh -- 16 MR. HORTON: So why aren't we fixing the 17 problem? 18 MR. CARLSON: We -- we actually just discovered 19 this issue just recently with the mold, and we have -- 20 MR. HORTON: No, no, no. 21 MR. CARLSON: We have began the -- 22 MR. HORTON: Not the -- 23 MR. CARLSON: -- relative humidity and moisture 24 investigation issue as well. So we're looking at our -- 25 at the equipment. 26 MR. HORTON: This -- this -- this has been 27 going on for some time now. And so it seems to me that 28 there should be pretty -- and I'm not an expert on this. 28 1 But there should be an extensive evaluation and 2 assessment on the genesis of the problem. And then we 3 should fix that first. Uh, and then once that's fixed, 4 then we can come in and look at remediating. 5 In fact, that fix itself may in fact remediate 6 some of the issues, because then you don't have the 7 perpetuation, the life cycle. You cut the life cycle 8 off by cutting that which feeds that particular mold. 9 And so why not do a clear -- I mean, an 10 extensive assessment of the building and find out what 11 can we do to address those issues and fix that, uh, for 12 lack of a better term, and then begin? Because it 13 doesn't appear that piecemealing this is working, uh, 14 and we're going to continue to spend funds and we're 15 going to continue to put our staff at risk. 16 And certainly we're doing everything that we 17 can to control it, and I -- I respect that. I respect 18 the efforts of DGS. But it seems that we've got to fix 19 the -- fix the problem first. And, um -- this is very, 20 uh, concerning. 21 So can you -- can you share with me what 22 we're -- what we're planning to do to address -- 23 MR. CARLSON: Sure. 24 MR. HORTON: -- the -- the larger issue? Not 25 just this. An assessment, an evaluation on what's 26 causing -- what could be causing and whether or not 27 those conditions exist here in this building and then 28 remediating that, fixing that, addressing that. 29 1 MR. CARLSON: Okay. Um, the HVAC system has 2 just been recognized over the last couple months dealing 3 with this Cladosporium issue. Uh, just recently we 4 started going into the HVAC system and started looking 5 at the coils that draw -- where the air draws in across 6 the building. Uh, we're starting to investigate the 7 reasons why we think there might be more moisture coming 8 into the buildings. This is all just as of this last 9 week. 10 So we are starting to get to the root of this 11 issue, uh, not looking forward to -- to, uh -- 12 MR. HORTON: Be mindful, I'm not just talking 13 about this problem. 14 MR. CARLSON: Correct. 15 MR. HORTON: I'm talking about an assessment of 16 the entire building, um, whether or not the elevator 17 shafts -- uh, is there a potential for a problem there? 18 Any place that there is a potential problem. And I'm 19 sure the experts could probably delineate that for us, 20 to say, well, here's a potential problem, window sills, 21 uh, air duckets, things of that nature where the walls 22 are thin and you can have that -- I forget what it's 23 called, but there's a scientific theory that allows 24 these things to kind of even come in through the walls 25 without proper insulation. 26 Um, and let's begin to fix the building. And 27 at the same time let's move our employees out so that 28 that can occur. And, quite frankly, I think once it's 30 1 fixed, it might be a marketable product and we can sell 2 it. And so we minimize the impact on our team members. 3 We minimize the cost to the state. Because if you're 4 right, it's just this problem; no big deal. If you're 5 wrong and the larger problem isn't fixed, it perpetuates 6 itself, it continues. And, you know, self-preservation 7 is a good thing. But, you know, we've got to look at -- 8 It reminds me of this story. I feel compelled 9 to tell this just to try to get this point across. 10 Uh, an individual, uh, was in the insane 11 asylum, two individuals. And they were trying to 12 release them, to determine whether or not they should be 13 set free. So they gave them -- they gave each of them a 14 mop and told them to go into this room and clean up that 15 room. 16 And so one guy went in and profusely began to 17 mop all the water up off of the floor and drained it and 18 put it into the toilet. Now the sink was running, and 19 the sink was stopped up. But he continued to profusely, 20 uh -- profusely mop up the water and drain it into the 21 toilet. And so they said this guy is crazy. 22 The other guy who they thought was the crazy 23 guy went in and he unplugged the sink, stopped the water 24 from running, shut it off, cleaned it up, walked out and 25 was set free. 26 So he went to the root of the problem as 27 opposed to continuing to mop things up. And that seems 28 like what we're doing here; it seems like we're just 31 1 mopping things up as they occur, and that's very, uh, 2 concerning. 3 So, how about some advice from my advisor, and 4 then a little advice from -- from DGS's advisor. And 5 then I'd like to hear from DGS. Can we go in that 6 order? 7 MR. DALY: Yes, we can. 8 I would recommend, and I have recommended, in 9 fact, in meetings with LaCroix Davis, uh, that a 10 Ventilation Engineer be brought into, uh, the team in 11 order to evaluate and eliminate, uh, water, because that 12 is the root, uh, problem. 13 Um, I know that there are some areas of the 14 building presently that have mold growth odors. I know 15 that some investigation has occurred. I know that the 16 investigations have not been complete because the odors 17 are still there, which means we must still have, uh, 18 water release -- released in certain areas of the 19 building. I suspect that some of that is in the core 20 area, uh, the elevator shafts or nearby those elevator 21 shafts where we have many mechanical systems. 22 Um, the investigation, as I indicated a minute 23 ago, is not complete. The odors are still there. There 24 still is, uh, water release, uh, events that are unknown 25 to us. They need to be identified and corrected. 26 MR. HORTON: Thank you. 27 Sir. 28 MR. DAVIS: Well, I would say that one of the 32 1 things that we, uh -- we did a building evaluation. 2 We -- we were able to identify those, uh, water sources 3 that -- where we had water coming in from the outside, 4 historic flood areas. And those -- all of that has been 5 systematically assessed and addressed with remediation 6 through the past several years. 7 Uh, so that sort of historical, uh, look at 8 things have been addressed. However, the main point I 9 want to say is that this is a building, and it's a 10 dynamic environment. And, for example, this finding in 11 the HVAC system, it may have pre-existed our finding. 12 It did, obviously, pre-exist our finding. But how much, 13 I don't know. 14 And you've got these mechanical systems; they 15 are now being evaluated. We're finding some issues -- 16 with an engineer coming in, we're finding some issues 17 associated with the way in which the -- 18 MR. HORTON: Is this a Ventilation Engineer? 19 MR. DAVIS: Ventilation -- he's an Electrical 20 Engineer. 21 MR. HORTON: Electrical? 22 MR. DAVIS: Yeah. With massive -- lots of 23 experience in the ventilation arena. 24 MR. HORTON: Why do we have to compromise? Why 25 can't we just have a Ventilation Engineer? 26 MR. DAVIS: You can have -- you can have 27 both. 28 MR. HORTON: I mean, why -- why wouldn't you 33 1 concur with, uh, the previous recommendation? 2 MR. DAVIS: I don't disagree with him. 3 MR. HORTON: You agree with him? 4 MR. DAVIS: I don't disagree with him. 5 MR. HORTON: Does that mean you agree with him? 6 MR. DAVIS: I just think there should be -- 7 MR. HORTON: You know, there's something I've 8 always wanted to say. I haven't been able to say this, 9 but I always thought it was kind of funny. Is that, let 10 me remind you, you're under oath. I always wanted to 11 say that. 12 MR. DAVIS: Yeah. No, I'm saying I don't 13 disagree with him. I think that a Ventilation Engineer 14 may be of help. 15 What we -- we brought in an -- an electrical 16 specialist in energy control systems. That doesn't mean 17 that that's the end of the process. We're kind of on 18 the front end of the process. You may need other 19 disciplines to do it. 20 What I'm saying is that the building is 21 dynamic. Uh, the -- one of the things I would say is 22 that this finding in the system, according to other 23 experts across the United States, is not unique to this 24 building. I think that's important for us to say, that 25 that -- that Cladosporium Sphaerospermum is -- is -- is 26 fairly commonly found in HVAC systems. So it's really 27 important for us to keep that in perspective. 28 Uh, now, that doesn't mean that the system may 34 1 not need some further assessment and adjustments, and 2 I -- and I think that may be the case. We're 3 beginning -- preliminary information that suggests 4 that's the case. 5 That's about all I -- all I can say at this 6 point is that we're going through this investigation 7 with the HVAC. On our punch list of our original 8 assessment of the building, there are still areas that 9 are being remediated as we're going through that whole 10 process. 11 MR. HORTON: Okay. 12 Ms. Houser. 13 MS. HOUSER: Yeah. Mr. Horton, I wanted to 14 make a point before, uh, DGS responded. I know right 15 now we're focusing on the air-conditioning. But for -- 16 for both you and Mr. Runner who weren't here with the 17 rest of the Board Members when we first began this 18 journey, um, the current plan that DGS has been 19 authorized to move forward with, not by us but by the 20 administration, is to address mold as it's shown to be a 21 problem. 22 They know that there is mold in what they term 23 to be interstitial spaces. So, uh, there's mold in 24 spaces where our -- our employees don't come in contact 25 with them. And the thought was that that mold was 26 entombed. It was not a plan that BOE supported or was 27 comfortable with, but we don't own the building. 28 Uh, we raised concerns because mold is fed by 35 1 water. And if you leave mold in interstitial spaces and 2 you have a moisture or a water event, aren't you running 3 the risk of that mold growing and then moving out of 4 those spaces? So we had a number of meetings with, uh, 5 the administration to try to encourage a different 6 approach and, uh, were unable to prevail. 7 So, um, the thought that all of the mold is 8 removed from this building is not accurate. And I'm 9 sure that Mr. Daly will agree with that. We felt a 10 different plan was appropriate, but that was not, uh, 11 approved. It's not our building. And it's -- and so 12 that's what we're -- what we're left with at this 13 point. 14 MR. HORTON: Yeah, we, um -- one of the most 15 important, uh, resources that we have at the Board of 16 Equalization is our employees. And -- and to that 17 extent, each of them, uh, as well as us, are very much 18 concerned about the impact this will have on the State 19 of California, which is DGS and Department of Finance 20 and so forth. Because the further we go along without 21 mitigating the root of the problem, the more exposure we 22 have -- we have in that arena. 23 So maybe as we go through this process, we can 24 make a determination, based on the experts, whether or 25 not we need to bring in a Ventilation Engineer and look 26 at the entire building and -- from their perspective, 27 not isolating it to one transaction, mopping it up, as I 28 prefer -- refer to, uh, when it occurs and so forth. 36 1 But let's just look at it holistically, uh, and 2 determine if we can mitigate that aspect of it and stop 3 the bleeding. And then we can begin to deal with the -- 4 the -- the incremental symptoms that exist. 5 Your thoughts, DGS. 6 MR. CARLSON: No, I would agree with you. 7 We're going to move forward in a proactive manner to 8 address the issue that we have at hand with the HVAC 9 system as well as other systems within the building. 10 As I -- I've only been involved with this 11 project for the last six months. But it's been my 12 understanding that as we complete a floor, there is an 13 assessment and a report that comes out of what has been 14 done and what still may need to be completed as part of 15 the work. So we should be -- and then I believe that's 16 shared with -- with BOE as well. 17 Um, so at this point, uh, we'll address the 18 issues that we know at hand. We'll bring in the HVAC 19 specialists that you're asking for here. We'll work 20 with both teams. 21 MR. HORTON: You'll bring in the Ventilation 22 Engineer as well? 23 MR. CARLSON: Correct. Correct. 24 MR. HORTON: Okay. 25 MR. CARLSON: Correct. 26 Um, and then look forward towards, uh, kind of 27 wrapping this thing up so everybody understands what we 28 still need to do. 37 1 MR. HORTON: It's a big package. 2 MR. CARLSON: Yes. 3 MR. HORTON: All right. Thank you. 4 Member Yee. 5 MS. YEE: Uh, I was just going to ask what the, 6 uh, potential time frame might be before we have a 7 fuller picture about what's still left to be examined or 8 tested? 9 MR. CARLSON: Yeah. Well, I suppose there's -- 10 there's many discussions that need to be had between us, 11 Hygiene Tech as well, to determine where we need to 12 begin. There's some investigation that has to take 13 place, uh, on the HVAC side. Um, and I need to talk to 14 these guys as well to determine where we sit within 15 our -- our big picture of the project. 16 MS. YEE: I'm just looking for -- 17 MR. CARLSON: So I'm guessing, uh, one month 18 we'd be able to put something together. I'm going to be 19 looking for these guys to provide the information. 20 MS. YEE: Actually, the list I'm looking for is 21 the still-to-be-done list. 22 MR. CARLSON: Yes. Okay. Still-to-be-done. 23 That -- that would be one month. 24 MR. HORTON: Ms. Houser, Members, if it be your 25 desire, possibly could bring this back in November. 26 MS. YEE: I think we should have a report on 27 this. 28 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, Mr. Chair, a couple of 38 1 thoughts onto that, too. You know, I -- I wouldn't mind 2 revisiting the policy that, uh -- 3 MR. HORTON: DGS. 4 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, in terms of what was 5 explained and talked about by Ms. Houser in regards to 6 DGS's opinion in regards to what, you know, the idea of 7 encapsulating rather than eradicating. Um, I think 8 that's a worthy discussion to continue to have, uh, in 9 light of the fact that they weren't in agreement for 10 it. 11 And, quite frankly, I'm not sure we shouldn't 12 have the Director over for that discussion, um, in order 13 then to -- because, again, there's a new Director there, 14 um, and -- and -- and, you know, there's a lot of new 15 players around. 16 So I'm wondering if maybe that's a good 17 discussion for us to have here, uh, in November, in 18 regards to not only what they're doing in regards to 19 this issue, but also then the ongoing discussion in 20 regards to what is the future. 21 I think it's important to address for two 22 reasons. Number one is, clearly, uh, we, uh -- we 23 clearly have the fact that we have found new evidences 24 in new places. And so -- and clearly what has been 25 talked about in regards to the, um, the air-conditioning 26 system is it sounds like another design problem. 27 So we're going back to the -- back to the same 28 kinds of things we had before, and that is we have 39 1 design problems that are opening up these exposures. 2 Um, and I think -- and I think -- so I think all these 3 are worthy for a new discussion as we talk about what 4 our alternatives are. 5 And, quite frankly, I think we should be trying 6 to press DGS for a much more aggressive, proactive 7 approach as opposed to what I'm hearing is much more 8 reactive. I mean, I like the fact that -- I'm glad that 9 all of a sudden you're saying, okay, yeah, let's go 10 ahead and have a -- have a Ventilation Specialist come 11 in and take a look at it. But I thought I heard our 12 consultant say he had already suggested that. 13 MR. DAVIS: We were in agreement on that. 14 MR. RUNNER: Well, you may have been in 15 agreement, but I didn't -- maybe I misunderstood. You 16 may have had an agreement, but I didn't hear a 17 commitment on DGS's part that they were going to do it 18 before it came up for discussion here. 19 Um, so anyhow, I'd like to see us be more 20 aggressive. And I certainly would like the idea of it 21 coming back in November. And I -- I'd like us to in -- 22 invite the Director over so that we can get a sense that 23 the Director understands the importance of what we're 24 dealing with here in regards to an important asset. 25 The other issue I want to just ask real quickly 26 and that is, I think I forgot which one of the 27 individuals said, hey, this is -- you know, this is an 28 issue that's happening in other buildings. This is not 40 1 an uncommon issue. 2 Are there other DGS buildings that you guys are 3 in the midst of dealing with this on? 4 MR. CARLSON: None that I'm aware of. 5 MR. RUNNER: Okay. I just want to make that 6 perspective important. Because, again, it's one thing 7 to say, hey, this is a common thing, and it's another 8 thing to say this is the only one that DGS is dealing 9 with in our state buildings. 10 MR. DAVIS: I -- 11 MR. RUNNER: Yes. 12 MR. DAVIS: I had made that comment. Because 13 as we found, uh, this -- about this issue, we -- HDI and 14 LaCroix Davis have begun investigating and talking to 15 other experts and looking at the research. And we are 16 finding even the research and in some of our experience 17 we -- one in the research of other -- and experience of 18 other folks, uh, that are experts in the field, that 19 this genus and species is common within an HVAC system. 20 That's number one. And then the second thing is, you 21 know, what are potential health effects associated. 22 I think it's also important in a -- in a 23 perspective, uh, to re-emphasize what I'd said at the 24 beginning. In fact, when I was talking to Brian, he 25 said, you should start your talk out with the fact that 26 the air quality in this building has not been 27 compromised; it's unremarkable. And even as we go look 28 for this very specific genus and species, we're seeing 41 1 no compromise, no -- no adverse effect of this condition 2 on the air quality, which is -- which is the end point 3 to all of us breathing here. 4 MR. HORTON: Mr. Runner. 5 And we -- we thank you for that clarification. 6 MR. DAVIS: Yeah. 7 MR. HORTON: It is the perpetuation, it is the 8 continuation, it is ever-ending. And, uh, it is the 9 theory that we've -- and the philosophy that we've 10 taken, uh, relative to mitigating it piece by piece, as 11 opposed to dealing with the root. 12 So what I'd like to see is that Mr. Davis and 13 Mr. Daly get together and just give us a report on what 14 you believe the root of the problem could be and the 15 specific actions that can be taken to deal with the 16 root -- to assess the root and then deal with it, and 17 mitigate that part of the challenge that is before us. 18 And I think armed with that information, those 19 facts, we can decide -- DGS would be in a better 20 position to decide the next course of action. We'd 21 certainly be in a better position. Our employees and 22 their representatives would be in a better position, uh, 23 whether or not they want to lobby Legislature, uh, again 24 and go at this from a different perspective, if 25 necessary, um, in order to -- to bring some relief, uh, 26 to all of us, to all of the human beings that, uh, live 27 here for eight to 15 hours a day. 28 Uh, with that said -- 42 1 MS. STEEL: May I just add one more? 2 MR. HORTON: Sure. 3 MS. STEEL: I want to ask Ms. Houser that I've 4 been known for this building's been trouble for the 5 last -- you know, before my term, means about seven 6 years now. And I want to see the cost that how much we 7 really spend with litigation and all these try to fix 8 it. It's kind of like a band-aid, a -- you know, work 9 that we've been doing for this building. How much we 10 spent so far, and how much it's going to cost more in 11 the future? That we've been asking DGS to actually, you 12 know, move out from this building and get a new building 13 so we can have little healthier environment for our 14 staff, but it was never really worked. 15 So I want to show the DGS Director that how 16 much we really spent so far and how much it's going to 17 cost. I guess, you know for money-wise it's much better 18 that we move out of this building and getting a new 19 building for the staff and it's much better for us to, 20 you know, work. So I want to look at all those numbers 21 until next month if it's possible. 22 MS. HOUSER: Yeah, we'll have that updated -- 23 MS. STEEL: Thank you. 24 MS. HOUSER: -- and bring it to November. 25 Thank you. 26 MR. HORTON: All right. Thank you very much. 27 Uh, Mr. -- don't go anywhere. We have a 28 witness before us today, Mr. Steve Alari, President of 43 1 SEIU Local 1000 District Labor Council 782. 2 Welcome, sir. 3 MR. ALARI: Thank you. Good afternoon, 4 Mr. Chairman, Vice-Chair Steel, and distinguished 5 Members of the Board. 6 I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you on 7 behalf of SEIU Local 1000. Our state President, Yvonne 8 Walker, sends her regards and wishes to add her support 9 on behalf of our members. 10 As a BOE employee and the new President of DLC 11 782 which represents the employees in this building, I'd 12 like to explain some health concerns that have come to 13 my attention. 14 Your BOE employees feel unsafe in this 15 building. Every day, for a variety of reasons, they 16 enter the building in the morning when they see warning 17 signs stating two carcinogens -- excuse me -- are 18 present on some floors and that some potentially 19 hazardous to -- and are potentially hazardous to their 20 health. Then they take the elevators to their floors, 21 some of which now have warning signs posted on them due 22 to repeated failures in recent weeks. 23 Be aware, one of the elevators right outside 24 the Board room, number 11, has been newly renovated and 25 has broken down weekly with employees in it since the 26 renovation. These failures have trapped employees in 27 the elevators, over an hour at times, and continues to 28 occur. 44 1 I'd like to take this opportunity to thank 2 Chairman Horton for his assistance with this issue last 3 week. 4 Once they get to their floor, they don't have 5 hot water to wash their hands or dishes. So they never 6 fully clean the bacteria -- off bacteria and germs. 7 When they are working, they are thinking of the mold 8 issues this building has, and to include the new issue 9 too, and now -- and those issues will negatively 10 affect -- and will those issues negatively affect their 11 long-term health. Then they end their day going down 12 the elevators which they still feel unsafe in. 13 Our employees recently expressed their concern 14 in recent months and years, and -- and -- and many work 15 every day fearful of what will happen next, or if 16 they'll be healthy in a few years to come given the mold 17 issues. Millions of dollars have been invested in 18 building repairs in recent years, yet the building feels 19 no more comfortable than they were before these efforts. 20 The employees in this building need a new 21 building. DGS, who owns and manages the building, needs 22 to find a permanent solution that addresses the 23 employees' needs for a safer work place. And the BOE 24 needs a facility large enough to house all its staff. 25 Surely there's a solution that can satisfy both 26 parties simultaneously. It clearly involves finding a 27 new building, emptying this building, and at least DGS 28 can come and completely restore this building with the 45 1 required repairs, like they did for office building 2 eight and nine on P Street in Sacramento which houses 3 the Department of Social Services. 4 This concern impacts employees physically, 5 psychologically, every single day. Employees in this 6 building deserve the right to go to work unencumbered by 7 the possibilities that doing so will harm their health 8 in any way. 9 We ask you to do everything in your power to 10 provide a safer work place for employees who work so 11 diligently for you and the people of the State of 12 California day in and day out. 13 Thank you very much, again, for allowing me to 14 come and speak to you on this issue. 15 MR. HORTON: Member Yee. 16 MS. YEE: Mr. Chairman, thank you. 17 Thank you, Mr. Alari. 18 Ms. Houser, I think we probably need to, um, 19 institute again -- just because I think there's been a 20 perception that there have been improvements, and 21 clearly the employees are feeling very uncomfortable in 22 the building. 23 But, um, I'd like to suggest that we, uh, 24 engage our employees again and convene a couple of 25 employee Town Halls, so that we can kind of get the 26 current, um, lay of the land relative to this building; 27 and, uh, would love to have General Services participate 28 in those. 46 1 I think, uh, much of the anxiety, uh, as we've 2 learned in the past, is from lack of accurate 3 information. Um, but it also provides a forum for 4 employees to be able to share their experiences 5 specifically, if they have any. 6 But I really would insist that within the next 7 week or two that we convene a couple of those Town Halls 8 to allow employees to have a forum to express any 9 specific concerns, but more importantly, to get the most 10 up-to-date information. 11 MS. HOUSER: Yes, we'll do that. And we'll 12 invite, uh, Mr. Alari and SEIU to participate as they 13 did before in the Town Halls that we held. We also had 14 the Hygienists -- 15 MS. YEE: Mm-hmm. 16 MS. HOUSER: -- someone from there be present 17 so that they could answer specific detailed questions. 18 MS. YEE: That'd be very helpful. And please 19 let my office know when those are scheduled. 20 MS. HOUSER: Absolutely. We'll send a notice 21 to everyone's office. 22 MS. YEE: Thank you. 23 MS. HOUSER: Thank you, Mr. Alari. 24 MR. ALARI: Thank you. 25 ---oOo--- 26 27 28 47 1 MS. HOUSER: My next facilities item is an 2 update on the elevators at the 450 N Street building. 3 The modernization project is nearing completion 4 and DGS anticipates all of the elevators will be fully 5 renovated, fully operational by December of 2011. 6 During the last few months we've had a number 7 of issues with the elevators that we continue to work 8 with the DGS to resolve. Most of these involve the 9 newly modernized elevator No. 11 that services the 10 garage. 11 Again Mr. Carlson from DGS is here to discuss 12 their plans to remedy these problems. 13 MR. CARLSON: Thank you. The final area that 14 we're going to address is the elevator modernization 15 project. We do understand this project has been a 16 hardship on several employees who work within this 17 building and we apologize for those events. 18 While it's not common for entrapments to occur 19 during a modernization project, they can occur due to 20 the integration at the existing equipment with the new 21 equipment. 22 It has been stated by others that this -- that 23 these elevators are unsafe. And we'd just like to state 24 that DGS would never put an elevator back into service 25 that was not safe for persons occupying that elevator. 26 Every elevator is run through a series of 27 inspections with the final approval coming from Cal 28 OSHA. They have the final say-so. Without their 48 1 approval, the elevator would not be returned to service. 2 The purpose of this final inspection is to 3 insure the safety of the general public, your employees 4 within this building, as well as the maintenance and 5 repair people who work on those elevators. 6 In the upcoming weeks DGS will be installing a 7 cooling coil to assist the hydraulic elevators which 8 service the parking garage, which is elevator car 11 and 9 12. 10 The most recent event that occurred on car 11 11 was due to its, basically, overuse. They were never 12 designed to operate as a stand alone. Since No. 12 was 13 taken out of service to do its modernization, so, the 14 reason for the entrapment was the overheating of the 15 hydraulic fluid that operates the elevator itself. 16 This work is expected to be complete by the end 17 of the month. The schedule for the elevator 18 modernization project is as follows: Car No. 12 will be 19 complete on September 22nd, which is tomorrow. They're 20 going to run through some tests within the elevator 21 itself, weight tests. Car 13 will start the following 22 day and finish approximately November 2nd. Car 10 will 23 start on November 3rd and that will be completed by 24 December 22nd -- excuse me, December 27th. 25 I'd be happy to answer any questions. 26 MS. STEEL: Is it 12 and 13 are out there on 27 the hallway? 28 MR. CARLSON: No, 11 and 12. 49 1 MS. STEEL: 11 and 12. 2 MR. CARLSON: They're on the hallway. 3 MS. STEEL: So, 13 is outside -- inside of the 4 garage? 5 MR. CARLSON: Yes. 6 MS. STEEL: Okay. So, by December it's going 7 to be all done? 8 MR. CARLSON: Correct. 9 MS. STEEL: Okay, thank you. 10 MR. HORTON: Member Yee? 11 MS. YEE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 12 I assume, but give us assurance, that 13 for employees here who have disabilities or other 14 physical challenges have been accommodated during this 15 time? 16 MS. HOUSER: Yes, we're working to manage that. 17 We -- we've encouraged staff who are able to use the 18 stairs to use them so that we can reduce the load on the 19 building and -- the load on the elevators that are still 20 up and active for the garages. 21 And if I've -- if the date is still on track, 22 by the end of this month we'll have the cooling coils on 23 these garage elevators, so, they -- that problem should 24 be gone. 25 So, we have encouraged employees to use the 26 stairs so that we can have the elevators available for 27 people who are physically challenged. 28 MR. CARLSON: In theory, when 12 goes back into 50 1 service, so you'll have both elevators operating, you 2 won't be putting the pressure on one elevator to 3 operate. 4 MS. YEE: Okay. 5 MS. HOUSER: Then as an additional 6 precautionary measure, BOE is also in the process of 7 securing the services of an independent consultant who 8 can examine the elevators to make sure that they're safe 9 for employees to use, similar to how we use HTI on the 10 mold issue. 11 MR. HORTON: Thank you. Member Mandel? 12 MS. MANDEL: No. 13 MR. HORTON: And, so, What's the timeline on 14 the elevators? 15 I know you -- 16 MR. CARLSON: Final completion December 27th. 17 MR. HORTON: December 27th. 18 MS. HOUSER: But for the garage elevators -- 19 your final includes your freight elevators? 20 MR. CARLSON: Correct. 21 MS. HOUSER: So, the -- 22 MR. CARLSON: Car 13 is November 2nd. 23 MR. HORTON: Car 13 is the one that's most 24 often utilized by our team members. 25 MS. HOUSER: Our employees use -- most often 26 use cars 11 and 12, which are right outside this Board 27 room. 28 MR. HORTON: When will they be -- 51 1 MR. CARLSON: 12 will be completed Thursday, 2 they're running through the final tests on Thursday. 3 MR. HORTON: Okay. And the other is okay? 11 4 and 12, are -- 5 MR. CARLSON: 11 and 12, which are right 6 outside. 7 MR. HORTON: You say 12 will be completed on 8 Thursday? 9 MR. CARLSON: Thursday, yeah. 11 was already 10 previously done. 11 MR. HORTON: Okay. 12 MS. MANDEL: But the cooling unit thing is the 13 end of the month? 14 MR. CARLSON: Correct. 15 MS. HOUSER: For both 11 and 12? 16 MR. CARLSON: For both 11 and 12 and that can 17 be done evenings when the final connection's taking 18 place. 19 Work will take place during the day, final 20 connection in the evening. 21 MR. HORTON: Thank you very much. 22 Let me just say to DGS that we fully understand 23 the restrictions that you are operating under and we 24 want to assist you to be able to assist us in addressing 25 the concerns of this Board and the -- and our team 26 members. 27 Thank you for your presentation and look 28 forward to continuing to work with you -- 52 1 MR. CARLSON: Thank you. 2 MR. HORTON: -- throughout this process. 3 ---o0o--- 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 53 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, KATHLEEN SKIDGEL, Hearing Reporter for the 8 California State Board of Equalization certify that on 9 September 21, 2011 I recorded verbatim, in shorthand, to 10 the best of my ability, the proceedings in the 11 above-entitled hearing; that I transcribed the shorthand 12 writing into typewriting; and that the preceding pages 1 13 through 47 constitute a complete and accurate 14 transcription of the shorthand writing. 15 16 Dated: September 28, 2011 17 18 19 ____________________________ 20 KATHLEEN SKIDGEL, CSR #9039 21 Hearing Reporter 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 54 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, JULI PRICE JACKSON, Hearing Reporter for the 8 California State Board of Equalization certify that on 9 September 21, 2011 I recorded verbatim, in shorthand, to 10 the best of my ability, the proceedings in the 11 above-entitled hearing; that I transcribed the shorthand 12 writing into typewriting; and that the preceding pages 13 48 through 53 constitute a complete and accurate 14 transcription of the shorthand writing. 15 16 Dated: September 29, 2011 17 18 19 ____________________________ 20 JULI PRICE JACKSON 21 Hearing Reporter 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 55