1 BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OF EQUALIZATION 2 450 N STREET 3 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 4 5 6 7 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT 8 JULY 26, 2011 9 10 11 ITEM M OTHER CHIEF COUNSEL MATTERS 12 M2 STATEMENTS OF ECONOMIC INTEREST 13 (FPPC FORM 700s) AND 14 TRAVEL CLAIM SCHEDULES 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Reported by: Juli Price Jackson 23 No. CSR 5214 24 25 26 27 28 1 1 P R E S E N T 2 3 For the Board Jerome E. Horton of Equalization: Chairman 4 5 Michelle Steel Vice-Chairwoman 6 7 Betty T. Yee Member 8 9 George Runner Member 10 11 Marcy Jo Mandel Appearing for John 12 Chiang, State Controller (per 13 Government Code Section 7.9) 14 15 Diane G. Olson Chief, Board 16 Proceedings Division 17 18 For the Department: Deborah Cooke Legal Department 19 20 Anita Gore Deputy Director 21 External Affairs 22 Randy Ferris Legal Department 23 24 Kristine Cazadd Interim Executive 25 Director 26 ---oOo--- 27 28 2 1 450 N STREET 2 SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 3 JULY 26, 2011 4 ---oOo--- 5 MS. OLSON: Our next item is M2, Statements of 6 Economic Interest (FPPC Form 700s) and Travel Claim 7 Schedules. 8 MS. COOKE: Thank you, Chairman Horton and 9 Members of the Board. Again, my name is Deborah Cooke 10 and I'm with the Legal Department. 11 Item M2 concerns the FPPC, that's the Fair 12 Political Practices Commission, Forms 700 and travel 13 expense claims discussed at the April 26th, 2011 Board 14 meeting. 15 So, this is a follow-up to address current 16 policies, best practices and how other constitutional 17 officers and agencies are handling the posting of these 18 documents. 19 We provided you with a detailed memorandum 20 which addresses three matters. First, we did -- we 21 found, essentially, and it's discussed in the memo, that 22 the current BOE policies and practices are consistent 23 with California law. 24 Specifically, consistent with the Public 25 Records Act BOE Form 700 and travel expense claims are 26 made available to the public upon request, even though 27 they are not on the BOE website presently. 28 Form 700s for the Board Members are posted on 3 1 the FPPC's website, along with those of other State and 2 local officials. They are redacted to exclude the 3 filer's mailing address, phone number, e-mail and 4 signature. 5 So, this practice is very functional. Although 6 the executive management and the vast majority of the 7 BOE employees file Form 700s, records show that we 8 receive very few requests each year under the Public 9 Records Act for these documents. 10 We have received three requests by the 11 Disclosure Office for Form 700s of each Board Member 12 since July 2008. This includes one request for all 13 Board Members and their staffs, their Form 700s, and one 14 request for the forms of just the Board Members, and 15 then one request for just the form of a single Board 16 Member staffer. 17 There were ten requests that were handled 18 specifically by the Human Resources Division since 2009. 19 Six of those requests were received just this year. 20 Regarding the travel expense claims and the 21 requests under the Public Records Act that we received 22 for those, since July 2008 our records show that the 23 Board's Disclosure Office has received only four 24 requests for travel expense claims for Board Members and 25 their staffs. 26 The second point in the memo is what other 27 constitutional officers and State agencies are doing 28 with respect to posting the travel claims and Form 700s. 4 1 Our research showed that only the State 2 Controller and the State Treasurer, as constitutional 3 officers, post the Form 700 of the officer and their 4 executive staff on their website. 5 The State Controller also posts travel expense 6 claims, but the State Treasurer does not. 7 CalPers is one agency who was previously 8 posting -- this is back in April 2011 when we first 9 presented this issue -- they were previously posting 10 both Form 700s and travel expense claims of the Board 11 Members and executive staff, senior investment staff, 12 senior portfolio managers and portfolio managers. But 13 now, after our recent research for this presentation 14 today, they're now posting just the monthly summary, 15 which includes the name, title, date and location of 16 travel, the purpose of the travel and the cost of 17 travel. That's Attachment 2 in your documentation that 18 you received. 19 This is a summary kind of chart that they do, 20 looks like on a monthly basis now as opposed to 21 previously posting everything from the summary travel 22 forms to hotel -- copies of hotel receipts and their SWA 23 Biz itineraries and so forth. 24 Apparently they've changed their processes in 25 that regard and are doing it more in a summary fashion. 26 Governor Brown does not post Form 700 or travel 27 expense claims on his website. 28 However, under Governor Schwarzenegger's 5 1 administration, the Reporting Transparency in Government 2 website was established to encourage the agencies and 3 departments under the Governor's direct executive 4 authority to post Form 700s and also travel expense 5 claims and external and internal audit reports. 6 The same banner for the Government Transparency 7 website is currently used on eBOE, but it's not at the 8 public BOE website. 9 While there is a location on the Governor's 10 site to post these documents, the BOE does not currently 11 post any documents on this site. 12 Many State agencies and departments use this 13 reporting transparency site, but they post only Form 14 700s and travel claims of each Department head. 15 A couple in particular, the FTB, they use that 16 site to report audit -- to post audit reports. 17 EDD uses it to post audit reports, travel 18 claims and Form 700s. 19 And DMV uses it to report audit reports, travel 20 claims and Form 700s. 21 There are many others that use that site, but 22 there's -- there are a lot of different ones and they 23 all report different things. Not everybody's reporting 24 the same information. 25 So, essentially, if the Board wishes to 26 implement a broader transparency practice than is 27 currently required under federal -- sorry, under the 28 California law, two options are possible. 6 1 The Board could consider posting each document, 2 the Form 700s and the travel expense claims, on the 3 BOE's website for the Members, their deputies and BOE 4 executive management. Or the Board could also consider 5 placing a link from the BOE website to the Board 6 Members' Form 700 on the FPPC's website. 7 And you can add a link to the BOE Disclosure 8 Office or any -- or the Travel Section of the Accounting 9 Department for the public to make streamlined Public 10 Records Act requests specifically for the travel expense 11 claims of a non Board member Form 700s, which would not 12 be at the FPPC's website. 13 At the last meeting there was also some 14 discussion about safety and security concerns if the 15 Members decided to move forward with increasing their 16 transparency and posting this information on the 17 website. 18 And, so, we took a look at that and -- and 19 present to you a few options that you could think about 20 in terms of addressing that. 21 You could look at posting information in a 22 summary format, as I mentioned like with CalPers, 23 they're just doing the summary without the detailed 24 information about an actual trip. 25 You could also secure an updated contract from 26 the Dignitary Protection Services, it's the California 27 Highway Patrol, for Board Member transportation and a 28 protection services. 7 1 We checked into the specific cost for those 2 services and the cost is $97.81 per hour and 52 cents 3 per mile. The last time that the BOE had a contract 4 with the CHP for Dignitary Protective Services was 5 during the 2006-2007 fiscal year. And it was for 6 purposes -- on an as-needed basis. 7 So, staff is prepared to answer -- to implement 8 any -- either option at your direction. 9 MS. MANDEL: Mr. Horton? 10 MR. HORTON: Ms. Mandel? 11 MS. MANDEL: I'm prepared to make a motion. 12 I would move that the Board of Equalization 13 post to its website the Form 700 and travel expense 14 claims of Board Members and of their staff and BOE staff 15 who are in senior decisionmaking, policymaking-type 16 roles. 17 MS. YEE: Let me second it. Then I want to 18 make a comment, Mr. Chairman? 19 MR. HORTON: Yes. Ms. Mandel, further 20 comments, then Member Yee -- if you deem necessary. 21 MS. MANDEL: Not at this time, thank you. 22 MR. HORTON: Okay, Member Yee? 23 MS. YEE: Sorry, Marcy, that motion was to -- 24 for all Board Members and their staff? 25 MS. MANDEL: Board members and staff and BOE 26 staff that's in, you know, we're talking about senior 27 decisionmaking, policy-type roles. 28 You know, one of the things we had asked for 8 1 for this Board meeting, if they came back, was, you 2 know, looking at what -- what staff members would be, 3 you know, appropriate. 4 But since we didn't -- 5 MS. YEE: I -- okay, no, I appreciate that. 6 Maybe just as a way to clarify or better try to 7 define that with respect to Board Members and our staff, 8 we have many staff members who don't travel at all. 9 So, can we -- 10 MS. MANDEL: Then they would have no claim, no 11 travel expense claim. 12 MS. YEE: Okay. 13 But I'm also thinking just in term of 14 consistency throughout the organization, what if it's 15 Board Members, our exempt staff and our CEA positions 16 and, for the organization as a whole, CEA positions and 17 higher? 18 MS. MANDEL: I don't know what positions, you 19 know, everybody's in at our office. All of the people 20 who are senior, in sort of the decisionmaking, 21 policymaking-type role, in which I mean, obviously, it's 22 deputies who sit on boards and it's people who advise 23 the Controller at that senior level. 24 We have people who I know are in exempt 25 positions. And we have people, like me, who are in a 26 CEA position. 27 I don't know everybody's position. I don't 28 know what everybody in every Board office does. But, 9 1 you know, we were looking at that kind of -- it seemed 2 that the senior decisionmaking, policymaking roles, I 3 don't know what the positions are. They may all be, you 4 know, CEAs or exempt, I don't know. As a matter of 5 fact, I don't know -- which was part of why -- you know, 6 one of the requests was, you know, who would it be? 7 And we're happy to, you know, talk about who -- 8 what positions those would be. But I don't have the 9 factual information myself to -- to know how to answer 10 that question. 11 MS. YEE: Does staff have any more information 12 about that? 13 MS. COOKE: Well, that's what the suggestion 14 was, Chief Deputies in each Board Members' offices, 15 assuming that they would be in decisionmaking, kind of 16 policymaking roles with respect to the Board Members and 17 also in line for succession, should there be a vacancy 18 in that in office, and then with the executive 19 management. So, that would be the executive team. 20 And at this that is agency that would be the 21 Executive Director, the Chief Counsel and then the 22 Deputy Directors -- hopefully, if I don't miss somebody 23 -- it's of the Sales and Use Tax Department, Special 24 Taxes, Administration, and I believe that IT and -- 25 MS. GORE: External Affairs. 26 MS. COOKE: External Affairs and the 27 Information, Technology -- I believe that's everybody on 28 the executive team. 10 1 MS. YEE: Okay. And, I mean, if we're going to 2 do this, I just wanted to find out a little bit more, I 3 guess, than -- I know, Ms. Mandel, we don't have enough 4 information but I, actually, would like to see -- for 5 the Board Members' offices to have that expanded to -- I 6 mean, at least the Chief Deputy, but it's also, I think, 7 our policy exempt positions and our Career Executive -- 8 the CEA positions as well. 9 And for the agency, the CEA levels on up -- and 10 higher, because they are engaged in policy matters. 11 That would be my suggestion. But Ms. Mandel's 12 motion wasn't specific, I'm trying to -- 13 MS. MANDEL: I appreciate, you know what -- I 14 am not familiar with the positions in the Board Member 15 offices. 16 MS. YEE: That's okay. 17 MS. MANDEL: So, you can certainly explicate 18 that. 19 MS. YEE: But I support the thrust of who ought 20 to be, you know, obviously, the subject of this 21 disclosure. 22 Thank you. 23 MR. HORTON: Further discussion, Members? -- 24 Are we -- this is just -- we're discussing the 25 Form 700? 26 MS. MANDEL: I combined the two of them in 27 one -- 28 MR. HORTON: Okay. 11 1 MS. MANDEL: -- the Form 700 and the travel 2 expense claims. It would be the -- I combined the two 3 things in one motion, if you -- so, I have the same 4 motion on both. 5 If there's a reason that somebody wanted to 6 talk about one separately, but I made the motion for 7 both at once. I was trying to be efficient. 8 MR. HORTON: Yeah, possibly, we can -- we can 9 separate them because I sort of view them a little bit 10 differently. 11 The Form 700 is a form that these individuals 12 that have been delineated actually currently file Form 13 700 and it's available, if I'm not mistaken; is that 14 right? 15 MS. COOKE. Right, those are publicly available 16 upon request. 17 MR. HORTON: It's on request? 18 MS. COOKE: The Board Members' are available on 19 the FPPC's website or upon request to this agency. 20 MR. HORTON: And, so, we would now -- under the 21 motion, we would now make those that aren't available at 22 the FPPC, we would somehow make them available on our 23 website? 24 MS. MANDEL: Right. Everything would become 25 instantly available to anyone who wants to see them on 26 the BOE website, any of the Form 700s of that group. 27 And as to the travel expense claims, if you -- 28 if there's somebody in that category who doesn't -- 12 1 doesn't travel or doesn't have one, I mean, even if you 2 go to our website at the Controller's office there are 3 probably some people who, in some months, you know, 4 don't have any travel or might not, you know, have had 5 much travel. 6 I don't know every single one that's there, but 7 they're up there if there was a claim. If there wasn't 8 a travel expense claim, then there's not going to be 9 something posted because they didn't have one. 10 MR. HORTON: Okay. I mean, on the Form 700, I 11 think that's a public document and the public's 12 certainly entitled to see it, irrespective of what your 13 position is. 14 So, making it accessible, more accessible, 15 seems to be the only debate relative to the public 16 document. 17 I got to share with you, Members, the 18 information that the Controller provides on travel -- 19 I'm going from memory here, I probably should have 20 looked at it, my apologies -- is not that detailed of 21 information that would actually provide anyone with any 22 ability to make any thorough analysis as to cost and so 23 forth and specifics as to what they -- why they went 24 there and what they worked on and where they actually 25 went to. 26 And if we're just asking to provide that same 27 type of general information, then, you know, I'm willing 28 to talk about that. 13 1 And, then, the other clarity is we began to 2 deal with this issue of security, which I think is 3 another issue. I would have to share that I am 4 concerned -- I'm concerned about the security of my 5 colleagues as well, considering that Congress has 6 decided not to disclose their information because of 7 security issues. 8 The legislature is a little bit restricted -- I 9 mean, has decided to hire armed security guards because 10 of security issues. 11 The federal government is heightening their 12 security issue. And elected officials are becoming 13 targets, which is inherent with the position that we 14 sort of decided to take. 15 I just don't know if it's appropriate to 16 subject our staff to the same exposure without, at a 17 minimum, providing them some level of protection and 18 that we should disclose how much that protection costs. 19 I think that's available. I think that should be 20 available. 21 And I'm conscious of the fact that the 22 Controller has a level of security that is not subject 23 to the Public Records Act, but possibly we should make 24 that information available too. 25 MS. MANDEL: I think that issues with respect 26 to the Controller's security are issues of the 27 California Highway Patrol. It's a California Highway 28 Patrol issue, as I understand it. 14 1 MR. HORTON: Well, quite frankly, I don't think 2 that the security -- my security, the Controller's 3 security or any other elected official's security is 4 more important than our staff and the people who work 5 for us. So -- and disclosing -- transparency, again 6 when we start talking -- going down these lines of 7 transparency and wanting to disclose, we don't stop at 8 second base. If our goal is to hit a home run, we -- we 9 go all the way. 10 And, so, disclosing -- 11 MS. MANDEL: Mr. Horton, we are concerned about 12 security. We're always concerned about our own 13 security, our colleagues' security, our staff's 14 security. 15 Issues with respect to California Highway 16 Patrol, as I understand it, it's a California Highway 17 Patrol issue. 18 I can talk to the security issue question with 19 respect to the travel expense claims. The travel 20 expense claims that are posted on the Controller's 21 website is what is produced by the State's CalAters 22 system, by which we all put in our requests for travel 23 reimbursement and make the record for the State of how 24 much money was spent on the various elements of travel 25 costs. Whether it's air fare, rental car, gasoline, 26 parking, mileage, per diem, whatever it is, that's where 27 the record is made. All that really needs to be shown 28 to -- these are public documents as well, is when the 15 1 travel occurred, where it went to. 2 And what you'll see on the way that ours are 3 done at the Controller's office is that each trip on 4 those CalAters you must enter -- maybe I -- I do it 5 myself, so, I'm kind of familiar with it, you have to 6 enter -- we put in -- the description of the trip is the 7 date of the trip and the location. 8 So, you know, it's going to say, July whatever 9 day I came up, July such and such to such and such. The 10 space might not be big enough to say Sacramento, because 11 it's such a long name, so, it might say, "Sac," it might 12 say, "Sacto," but enough so that someone knows it's 13 Sacramento. And it has the costs of the travel. And 14 that cost is also delineated in the summary sheets, 15 again, that CalAters produces of the type of expense 16 again, whether it was air fare or whatever. 17 There is nothing in that material that goes to 18 what flight someone took, what time they left, what 19 hotel they might have stayed in -- the types of things 20 that might, I think, give someone pause as to whether -- 21 whether there could be something there in that public 22 document that indicates, you know, patterns of travel or 23 something else that might get to security concerns. 24 And if it's determined that the way those 25 things come out -- I mean, we don't think that they 26 create any security risks, but if there's something 27 that -- certain information is going to be on someone's 28 travel expense claim would expose them to a security 16 1 risk, certainly, you know, that information can get 2 redacted. 3 We don't think that what -- at this time that 4 what CalAters produces does that. 5 MR. HORTON: Well, you know, I -- again -- 6 MS. MANDEL: I'm just -- you know, I'm just 7 familiar with it because we've been doing it, so -- 8 MR. HORTON: -- no, I appreciate that. 9 But, let me be clear, I'm saying that that 10 information doesn't provide the public any detail 11 awareness of what's actually happening. 12 And if it's the goal to be able to quantify 13 where staff is going, when they're going and how much is 14 being spent on doing whatever they happen to be able to 15 do, then the information that is currently being 16 provided by the Controller wouldn't provide that 17 information. 18 And it's not a question of whether or not, at 19 least in my mind, whether or not security is an issue, 20 it is a reality. And it is a reality that is indicative 21 of the actions that have been taken by elected 22 officials, except for -- in fact, we are the only 23 constitutional officers who have decided not to take 24 the -- not to take the same level of security protection 25 that -- that other constitutional officers are 26 employing. 27 And if it's an issue of knowing where the Board 28 Members go and so forth, my mere point is that -- and 17 1 what the cost of travel is for us, my point is is that 2 that information is not made available by anyone else, 3 any other agency. 4 But if that's the desire, we should also 5 advocate for that -- we can't advocate for partial 6 disclosure and say we are -- I am prepared to do what 7 the Controller discloses now because I think it's 8 minimal. I don't see it as -- as disclosing his travel 9 or mine or his staff's travel in any specific sort of 10 way, it's pretty general. 11 But I think if that's the desire to do that in 12 a general sort of way, fine. If you want to do it in 13 more detail, then that's where my concern comes in. 14 But security is a real issue. If that were not 15 the case, we wouldn't have elected officials having 16 Highway Patrol security transporting them to any event 17 that they happen to go to, irrespective of the risk to 18 those particular individuals and that that information 19 would not be kept confidential as to where they're going 20 and when they're going and how much that cost. 21 And, so, to the level of that security is 22 necessary for an elected official, it certainly should 23 be necessary for our Chief Counsel, our Chief 24 Administrative Officer and so forth. 25 But if we're talking about just general 26 disclosure that has no real value without a Public 27 Records request that gets the in-depth information, 28 which -- 18 1 MS. MANDEL: Well, it does have a value. 2 It's -- it's about -- I mean, people can know how 3 much -- quickly, instantly, how much we're spending on 4 travel on the State's behalf. 5 MR. HORTON: They don't know -- they don't -- 6 if we're using Highway Patrol, they have no idea what 7 the elected -- what the cost of the elected official's 8 travel is and where they're going. 9 MS. MANDEL: Again, that's a Highway -- 10 California Highway Patrol issue. 11 As I understand it, we are talking about the 12 travel expense claims. The Controller's travel expense 13 claims are publicly available on the Controller's 14 website, as are all of his senior policy, decisionmaking 15 aides and that's what we're asking for -- 16 MR. RUNNER: Mr. Chair? 17 MS. MANDEL: -- here. 18 MR. HORTON: Mr. Runner? 19 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, just a couple of 20 observations. 21 A, can I have another review -- how -- I think 22 you started, Miss Cooke, with a review of how many 23 requests we've had for this information, both 700 and 24 travel? 25 MS. COOKE: Right. 26 MR. RUNNER: Can you review that again? 27 MS. COOKE: Certainly. So, excuse me -- we 28 received three requests through the Disclosure Office 19 1 for Form 700s of each Board Member since July 2008. 2 So, that would be -- one request was for all 3 Board Members and their staff. 4 MR. RUNNER: Uh-huh. 5 MS. COOKE: Another request for the forms of 6 all Board Members and one request for just the form of a 7 single employee. 8 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So, that was since 2008 9 you've had three requests? 10 MS. COOKE: Three requests. 11 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 12 MS. COOKE: And that was received directly 13 through the Disclosure Office. 14 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 15 MS. COOKE: The Human Resources Division, who 16 maintains these forms, the Form 700, had ten requests 17 that were handled in 2009 -- since 2009, excuse me. Six 18 of those requests were received in 2011. 19 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Okay and then how about for 20 travel? 21 MS. COOKE: For travel we have received -- the 22 Disclosure Office has received, since July 2008, four 23 requests for travel claims -- expense claim of the Board 24 Members and their staff. 25 MR. RUNNER: Okay. So, four since 2008? 26 MS. COOKE: Correct. 27 MR. RUNNER: Okay. I guess I'm going to start 28 with the thought is I am not sure what problem we're 20 1 trying to solve here, you know, in that sense. 2 And, again, I would once again point out that 3 as elected officials we can choose to do exactly what 4 the Controller has done and we can choose to go ahead 5 and put on -- whoever we would like on our individual 6 staffs and make available. 7 And if we link, we can link our own 700s. We 8 can link whoever on our staff we want to link 700s to. 9 We can do that, just like the Controller has chosen to 10 do that with certain staff. 11 And, again, if it's about transparency, I'm 12 actually perusing the Controller's website and I'm 13 still -- can't find where it's posted. 14 So, maybe you can -- if it's, again, about 15 transparency and being able to get information to the 16 public, where is it on the website? 17 MS. MANDEL: There is an "Enhancing Government 18 Transparency" page. 19 MR. RUNNER: Where? 20 MS. COOKE: I can give you the exact site, but 21 if you go to their search engine, which is at the top, 22 probably right-hand corner -- 23 MR. RUNNER: Yeah. 24 MS. COOKE: -- and you type in "transparency," 25 it'll probably give you a direct link. 26 MR. RUNNER: Okay. Let me -- let me just 27 suggest that. 28 If somebody is looking for somebody's travel, 21 1 you mean, in order to find it you've got to type the 2 word "transparency"? 3 MS. MANDEL: No, you've just got to go to the 4 "About Us" tab where you might want to be finding out 5 things about us -- 6 MR. RUNNER: Okay, "About Us," I'm here. 7 MS. MANDEL: -- and you will see "Enhancing 8 Government Transparency." 9 And then you can learn -- 10 MR. RUNNER: Hold on, I'm trying -- 11 MS. MANDEL: -- more about us. 12 MR. RUNNER: Okay, my -- 13 MR. HORTON: Members, I think we all agree that 14 the Controller's has the information there and -- 15 MR. RUNNER: Yeah, I get -- well, my point -- 16 MR. HORTON: -- it's available. 17 MR. RUNNER: -- I would agree that it's there. 18 But I would agree it's pretty hard to find. 19 And, again, if it's that important, I would 20 think that we'd put a button right on the front page. 21 If it's -- if we're trying to actually -- if this is 22 really all about transparency and trying to make people 23 do it, then we'd put a button right on the front page 24 saying, "travel expenses," all those other things. 25 But -- and I'm -- you know, it's seems to me 26 again -- I'm trying to ask what -- what problem we're 27 trying to solve. 28 If I feel like -- and if I am getting convinced 22 1 that this is something that I need to do and that I need 2 to do this with my staff at a certain level, then 3 I'll -- then I'll figure out how to do it and that's my 4 job will be as an elected official -- just like the AG 5 does or just like the Governor does or just like the 6 Controller does. That's my job as an elected official. 7 No, I understand that I have another job and 8 that is that what I may want to do with the executive 9 staff or certain members or parts of staff for the BOE, 10 that's a different issue. And that is a Board 11 discussion in regards to what level and who we do that 12 with. 13 But as far as the staff -- our individual 14 staffs, I mean, again, our staffs are just not 15 comparable to the Controller's as the motion is. 16 I mean, I've got executive secretaries under 17 that motion that would have to be filing. Now that -- I 18 could -- I know that on the level of staff that is 19 being -- at least when I find it here -- that's being 20 reported -- 21 MS. MANDEL: Well, maybe -- you know, maybe my 22 motion -- maybe you read into my motion a comma in a 23 place there wasn't -- this is always -- I love English, 24 it's fabulous -- because the senior decisionmaking, 25 policymaking roles, as Ms. Yee was talking about, 26 applies not just on the BOE staff, but the Board Member 27 staff. 28 MR. RUNNER: Okay. 23 1 MS. MANDEL: And if you have an executive 2 secretary who is not advising you about the -- you know, 3 the policy steps that your executive secretary -- you 4 know, she's not doing your -- that kind of thing. 5 MR. RUNNER: Right. But let me give you an 6 example. 7 I have, say, an attorney, a Level II. I can 8 guarantee you that the Controller's attorneys, Levels 9 IIs, aren't listed, only his highest executives are. 10 So, I -- 11 MS. MANDEL: It depends what their -- you know, 12 what the -- you know, what's the role with -- what is -- 13 what is the role of that position/person? 14 You know, we -- if -- if -- there was a time 15 when I first took this job, just to give you, you know, 16 a personal example, when I first took this job, I was 17 not in a CEA position -- 18 MR. RUNNER: Right. 19 MS. MANDEL: -- for some, I don't know, six 20 months or more I was not in the CEA position. 21 I was the Deputy Controller for Tax. I 22 represented the Controller, then Controller, on the 23 Board of Equalization and the other boards that I had 24 responsibility for, but I was a -- I can't remember what 25 it was, but it was -- it was a Staff Counsel -- some 26 kind of Staff Counsel Specialist something or other. 27 MR. RUNNER: Uhm-hmm. 28 MS. MANDEL: It's like the Army, I can't 24 1 remember all the titles. 2 But it was not a CEA position, it was an 3 attorney -- it was a -- whatever they call it, regular 4 attorney position. 5 So, you know, if we had had this then, my 6 things would have been up there because of my position 7 and role within the office, not by virtue of the fact 8 that I was or was not a CEA. I believe that's what 9 would have happened, but -- at our office, because of 10 the position that I hold. 11 And when we talk about the senior position 12 making --al, policymaking roles, I was in that role, 13 albeit, not as a CEA. 14 How many times can I say that in a row? 15 MR. RUNNER: Right. Well, yeah, again, I -- 16 again, those would be decisions that I think that as 17 elected officials we would make for our staff. 18 And, again, I differentiate then how it is that 19 we might, as a Board, decide our executive staff in that 20 responsibility. 21 But then again, let's -- 22 MR. HORTON: I might see some -- 23 MR. RUNNER: I did find the "Enhancing 24 Government Transparency" page. 25 MR. HORTON: I hear a legal question in there 26 somewhere. 27 Does this -- one that I would certainly 28 address, at least try to -- to summarize what I think 25 1 Mr. Runner is asking -- my apologies for doing so, 2 Mr. Runner -- but does this body have a legal authority 3 to direct elected officials in this regard? 4 And at what level of their staffing can we give 5 direction to? 6 MR. FERRIS: I would think that as to each 7 Member's office the Member has authority within their 8 office. 9 And there is a distinction between that and the 10 executive team of the agency itself and what the Board 11 wants to do. 12 The reason why I sat down here was just I 13 wanted to -- depending upon what level with respect to 14 your own staffs that any one of you may want to put 15 these types of documents up, to the extent you went down 16 to levels where you had union employees that were 17 potentially affected, we just want to let you know that 18 there could be meet and confer issues that you would 19 want to consider as you do that. 20 MR. HORTON: So, to the first question, can 21 you -- can you restate your opinion and put a period 22 behind it? 23 MR. FERRIS: I think it would be problematic 24 for the Board to -- as a whole, unless they -- unless 25 you all unanimously want to consent to how you would 26 treat each of your own staffs -- for the Board to direct 27 that. 28 But the Board could direct as to the -- 26 1 MR. HORTON: That's the interesting thing about 2 this body, we could do just -- 3 MR. FERRIS: As to the executive team, you 4 know, the CEAs that are -- the agency CEAs, not your 5 own, so -- 6 MR. HORTON: Okay. In light of that -- 7 MS. STEEL: Hum -- 8 MS. MANDEL: Well, I guess I still have a 9 motion and a second. 10 So, I guess I need to see where that goes. 11 MR. HORTON: Okay. 12 MS. STEEL: Mr. Chair? 13 MR. HORTON: Member Steel? 14 MS. STEEL: This is all the public record and 15 if you just punch one button on FPPC website, everything 16 comes up. 17 And travel expenses -- you know, we have our 18 schedule comes out year before. So, everybody knows how 19 to travel. We have exactly same pattern. 20 I don't know about others, but for me, it's, 21 you know, coming exactly same flight every month I am in 22 Sacramento. Everybody can find out that -- where I am 23 staying and how I come up. 24 I don't want to put my travel expenses on the 25 website because there is always some people just 26 browsing around on the website. Why make it very 27 hard -- I mean easy for them to just click in and go 28 look at the travel expenses and then they look for the 27 1 trouble. 2 I mean, they -- it's all public record. If 3 they ask for it, they get it. So, I really don't 4 understand that why we have to go through this right now 5 for Form 700 and travel expenses because if we want to 6 do it, we will do it on our website. But I don't want 7 to do it on BOE website for both of them. 8 Because everything's on public record. If they 9 want to get it, they get it. But I don't think this is 10 really, you know, right to do it on the BOE website. 11 If Controller wants to do, I think he -- I 12 think he is doing it on his own website. But BOE is 13 totally separate entity. 14 Thank you. 15 MR. HORTON: Okay. Members, from my 16 perspective, I have to respect the security concerns of 17 my colleagues. Three members of this body have been 18 threatened, had death threats. 19 And if there is a concern there -- and my 20 concern for the staff goes to the same -- unless we're 21 prepared to provide the same level of security that we 22 provide for the Controller and others upon request, I'm 23 not -- I don't want to create a phobia here where we 24 just automatically incur these expenses, but to the 25 extent that there is a request of these Members, 26 although the level of interest based on the inquiries 27 doesn't seem to be there -- and I would venture to say 28 that many of those are inquiries by the press and a 28 1 person who does a yeoman's job of letting people know 2 how much we're spending and when we're spending it and 3 so forth, and we may even want to issue a press release 4 to disclose what the cost is for whatever activity is an 5 activity of concern for a particular Member. 6 But there has to be some element of fairness 7 and equity. What we ask of others, we should certainly 8 adhere to ourselves. And if we are fearful or concern 9 and so forth, that same level of concern should be there 10 for the people that we're asking to rise to the same 11 standards. 12 So -- so, and to the extent that we are 13 prepared to provide that same level of security to those 14 individuals, I would entertain a motion of -- 15 MS. MANDEL: I have a motion on the floor. 16 It's been seconded. 17 Can we get a -- 18 MR. HORTON: There's a motion and a section -- 19 second. I believe we're in the area of discussion right 20 now. 21 Unless you want a motion to call for the 22 question? 23 MS. MANDEL: That sounds good 'cause there's 24 been a lot of discussion -- 25 MR. HORTON: So moved. 26 MS. MANDEL: -- which seems to be -- 27 MR. HORTON: A motion to call for the question. 28 Is there a second? 29 1 MS. YEE: Second. 2 MR. HORTON: Okay. Ms. Olson, please call for 3 the roll. 4 MS. OLSON: Mr. Horton? 5 MR. HORTON: No. 6 MS. OLSON: Ms. Steel? 7 MS. STEEL: No. 8 MS. OLSON: Mr. Runner? 9 MR. RUNNER: No. 10 MS. OLSON: Ms. Yee? 11 MS. YEE: Aye. 12 MS. OLSON: Ms. Mandel? 13 MS. MANDEL: Aye. 14 MS. OLSON: Motion fails. 15 MR. HORTON: So, the public has not been denied 16 an opportunity to discuss this matter further. 17 Further discussion, Members? 18 Okay, I think the maker of the motions has the 19 essence of what that -- what the concerns are. 20 There's a motion on the table, could you -- 21 MR. RUNNER: Ms. Mandel? 22 MR. HORTON: Sorry, but could you -- 23 MS. MANDEL: You want me to say it again? 24 MR. HORTON: Or -- this is just -- consider, if 25 you will, consider the input of your colleagues -- 26 Ms. Yee, Mr. Runner, myself and so forth -- unless that 27 is the motion that you have before you? 28 But if you could modify it in some sort of way 30 1 to be reflective of that, it might be helpful. 2 But if not, I'm not -- it's just a suggestion 3 on my part. 4 MS. MANDEL: I have my motion, as further 5 explicated by Ms. Yee about the categories of personnel, 6 with her assistance that I was not familiar with Board 7 Member offices on the Form 700s and the TECs, that's the 8 motion. 9 MS. YEE: I'll second -- second. 10 MR. HORTON: Only if you guys want to discuss 11 this, quite frankly -- 12 MS. YEE: Mr. -- 13 MR. HORTON: -- I understand it, but I am 14 prepared to call for the question, though, because we 15 have had some pretty extensive discussions. 16 MS. YEE: -- Mr. Chairman? 17 MR. HORTON: Member Yee? 18 MS. YEE: Let me see if I can maybe entertain a 19 slight revision to the motion. 20 I appreciate the security concerns that have 21 been raised and I think all of us share those. And we 22 should be mindful of them. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman, 23 for raising those and putting them squarely before us. 24 I think with respect to what the Controller and 25 the Treasurer have both done, what might be a more 26 consistent approach for us as this body, would be 27 disclosure of Form 700s and travel expense claims for 28 Board Members, Chief Deputies and executive staff of 31 1 this agency. 2 I think that's probably a better kind of apples 3 to apples kind of comparison with respect to what those 4 two offices do. 5 I don't want to discount what Ms. Mandel was 6 suggesting that there are other classifications that 7 definitely are involved in policymaking roles, but, I 8 think, given the input that we have had from you, 9 Mr. Chairman, about security and Ms. Steel, to some 10 extent, about, you know, what -- what's really the more 11 relevant information that the public will be interested 12 in and I think it's probably at those higher levels with 13 respect to how much we are incurring with respect to 14 those expenses and then, certainly our disclosure of any 15 potential conflicts. 16 So, I will -- Ms. Mandel, if you are interested 17 in entertaining that revision, I think that's probably 18 more -- 19 MS. MANDEL: More comparable? 20 MS. YEE: -- uh-huh, more comparable 21 comparison. 22 MS. MANDEL: Okay. That's okay. 23 MS. YEE: Okay. So, I would offer that as a 24 substitute motion, that we move to require disclosure of 25 the Form 700s and travel expense claims for Board 26 Members, their Chief Deputies and the executive team -- 27 executive staff of this organization -- of the Board. 28 MS. MANDEL: And I'll go ahead and second 32 1 that. 2 MR. HORTON: Further discussion, Members? 3 Hearing none, Members, I am prepared to 4 personally put my -- my travel online, that of my -- of 5 the decisionmakers in my office, to the extent that that 6 exists, and the Chief Counsel's -- under the Chief 7 Counsel's direction, I don't know that a decision 8 here to require all Board Members to conform would be 9 unanimous and would be governing. 10 And, so, I don't necessarily want to 11 participate in that exercise either. 12 And I'm prepared to -- I think it's -- I think 13 it's informative to the public to have that information 14 of the executive team, but I'm prepared to -- to do that 15 to the extent that they're also -- that the level of 16 security that's availed to us and other elected 17 officials is also provided to them, that if, for some 18 reason, they feel that there is a security threat to 19 them personally that they can have that information 20 removed, enacted (verbatim), or whatever is necessary in 21 order to protect them. 22 If there is a point in time in their career 23 that they are concerned, I just don't want be to the one 24 that requires them to disclose information and some 25 person searching the web decides to take advantage of 26 that. And then we are in a position that we certainly 27 know -- we find ourselves in a position that we could 28 have avoided. 33 1 So, if we are prepared to -- my colleagues are 2 prepared to provide the staffing that is going to 3 disclose this information the same level of security, 4 same level of security options and so forth that's 5 available to elected officials, I'm prepared to do that. 6 I'm prepared to put my own personal information 7 on there because I believe as an elected official that 8 that information should be available to the public and, 9 possibly, the exempt member of my team that could sit in 10 for my position as well. 11 But to direct the elected officials what to do 12 in their own office, unless Chief Counsel -- we can get 13 a legal opinion that that will be binding, I don't see 14 the purpose of it other than to -- for a public discord, 15 which I don't think benefits any of us, but -- 16 MS. YEE: Do you want to dispense with the 17 motion? 18 MR. HORTON: It's been moved and second. 19 Ms. Olson, please call the roll. 20 MS. OLSON: Mr. Horton? 21 MS. OLSON: No. 22 MS. OLSON: Ms. Steel? 23 MS. STEEL: No. 24 MS. OLSON: Mr. Runner? 25 MR. RUNNER: No. 26 MS. OLSON: Ms. Yee? 27 MS. YEE: Aye. 28 MS. OLSON: Ms. Mandel? 34 1 MS. MANDEL: Aye. 2 MS. OLSON: Motion fails. 3 MR. HORTON: I would make a motion to provide 4 the information, the 700s, and the travel of the 5 executive team to the extent that they are provided the 6 same level of security that all of our elected officials 7 are and that the same level of security would also 8 include them being able to discontinue providing that 9 information if they feel that there is an element of 10 security risk, but whatever might be going on in their 11 own personal lives. 12 I had a -- without disclosing, but there is a 13 situation where an individual's spouse has received 14 restrictions, various restrictions -- I'm trying to pick 15 and choose my words not to disclose any private 16 information. 17 And I just don't want to put individuals into 18 those positions. And certainly we want to be able to be 19 protective of our staffs, not only those who are members 20 of the unions because the union is there to protect 21 them. And certainly the union would not allow this 22 elected body to do this to any of their members. And if 23 he we sought impose this on union representatives, they 24 would be screaming to the hills about us doing this. 25 But to the extent that we are elected 26 officials, we are held to a higher standard. And I get 27 that and I respect that. And I am prepared to conform 28 to the requests -- only because there are members of 35 1 this body that believes that that information needs to 2 be out there. 3 And, so, I'm -- because I don't see the risk of 4 putting it out there, I don't have an issue with it, I'm 5 prepared to do it myself, to be in harmony with the 6 Controller. 7 But being in harmony means to be completely in 8 harmony. So, to the extent that the Controller has 9 security, I believe those individuals should have the 10 same security options and even more. 11 And, so -- and particularly being knowledgeable 12 about the threats that have been made by -- made 13 relative to members of this body because of their 14 constitutional responsibilities -- we're deciding 15 whether or not people owe hundreds of thousands of 16 dollars. Many individuals are, arguably, put out of 17 business because of some of the decisions that we make. 18 Many are forced into a divorce situation. Their kids 19 can't go to college. 20 And certainly we make those decisions based on 21 the merits of the law. And sometimes -- not 22 necessary -- and I believe that this body is fully 23 conscious of those subjective things that will occur in 24 people's lives. 25 But everyone isn't programmed the same way. 26 Sometimes a loss of a case, $100,000 case, can cause you 27 to go berserk and to do things that you wouldn't 28 normally do. 36 1 And not only is that a hypothetical situation, 2 that is a very real situation. That's reality for this 3 body and has occurred, not only for the elected 4 officials up here, but also for many of the staff that 5 work within the Board of Equalization. 6 I can recall when I was a -- which I can talk 7 about because it's history -- when I was a tax auditor 8 and there was a fraud situation, probably one of the 9 first fraud situations for the Board of Equalization. 10 I was asked to wear a wire, to go in and tape 11 an individual asking or committing an -- indicating that 12 they wanted to bribe me. 13 And, so, we did. And I wore the wire and it 14 was kind of funny because you had guys with glasses and 15 long trenchcoats and a van where -- with taping 16 everything. 17 And I'm, like, "Wow, this is like a movie." 18 Fortunate for them, and not for me, I was 21 years old 19 and a little naive. 20 Would I do it now? Of course not. 21 Did I suffer Bell's palsy and nervousness as a 22 result of that? I did, yeah. Did I get a Certificate 23 of Appreciation from the Board Members? I got a 24 Certificate of Appreciation. Did I get subsequent 25 security from any other audits? No, I got absolutely 26 nothing. 27 And we went to court and I had to testify. 28 And, arguably, the guy who was arrested and got 20 37 1 years, when he got out, you know, he could be a little 2 concerned and particularly since I'm sitting on the same 3 Board now. 4 So, I've had personal experience myself. I've 5 had them since I've been sitting on this body. I have 6 heard of them from my colleagues, Ms. Alby and others 7 that have been very, very serious. 8 I've heard them from staff members here. And 9 I've got to tell you, Members, I am extremely sensitive 10 and I am not about to take that risk. 11 But to myself, as an elected official, I'll 12 rise up to that standard and disclose it. But that's 13 not to say that I'm not going to seek security -- the 14 same level of security that the Controller and the rest 15 of the folks have, be mindful of that as well. 16 So, I'd make the motion to -- to provide the 17 executive -- the information on the executive -- my 18 apologies to the executive team in advance -- but I 19 would qualify that motion to say that they have -- be 20 available the same level of security, same level of 21 protection, same level of -- the same options that 22 anyone else would have in participating if they think 23 there is a security risk. 24 Your thoughts, Mr. Ferris? 25 MR. FERRIS: Yes. I'm not sure, I think 26 Miss Cooke may have the statute in front of her, but I'm 27 not sure that the statute provides that the CHP would be 28 able to provide the same level of security that you -- 38 1 MR. HORTON: Well, we can hire somebody. 2 MR. FERRIS: Okay, just so you understand. 3 MR. HORTON: It doesn't have to be the CHP. 4 If there is a risk to one of our staff, no law, 5 no policy should prohibit us from being able to protect 6 them. 7 Now to some, I know to many of my colleagues, 8 my constitutional officers, this is very real. And I -- 9 that's why they have the level of security that they 10 have. 11 And I'm somewhat -- I'm very conscious of that 12 and very protective of them as well. I think they're 13 entitled to it. 14 I would not want my AG, Attorney General, not 15 having full security. In fact, I don't think that the 16 AG has enough. I don't think the Treasurer has enough. 17 I believe the Controller should have more, I mean, he's 18 making some very complicated decisions as the 19 Controller. 20 But certainly we are also and so are our staff 21 members. We're dealing with thousands of people and 22 imposing -- they're paying millions and billions of 23 dollars. And if money doesn't -- or the lack of money 24 doesn't motivate people to do some crazy things, I don't 25 know what does. 26 So, those are my concerns. 27 MR. RUNNER: Mr. Chairman? 28 MR. HORTON: Mr. Runner? 39 1 MR. RUNNER: Just kind of trying to get through 2 what I'm trying to figure out, who makes that decision 3 and -- and how far into the staff we're talking about. 4 So, maybe we can have the Executive Director 5 come on up to the table and just kind of summarize? 6 'Cause again, I'm -- again, I get the idea of 7 our responsibility in regards to disclosure issues and 8 whatnot for staff and what is the right and proper -- 9 and appropriate disclosure. 10 So, I guess I want to -- I want to hear from 11 the Executive Director, how she would, right now, 12 interpret the implementation of that policy, especially 13 when in regards to the issue of judgment of personal 14 safety and those -- that aspect of it. 15 MS. CAZADD: Kris Cazadd, Interim Executive 16 Director. 17 As I understand the motion, it's -- it would 18 condition posting of the Form 700s and the travel claims 19 on our access to security for staff who had those items 20 posted. 21 Now, if I'm -- I was a little bit unclear about 22 whether that's security -- access to security would 23 occur in the event of a threat or would be available all 24 the time. 25 If I were to interpret it correctly, I would 26 say it would be available all the time because my 27 understanding is that your intent is to prevent any type 28 of occurrence of an event that we wouldn't want to have 40 1 occur with regard to our staff or the Members. 2 That would mean that we would have to contract 3 with either CHP Dignitary Protection Services, which I 4 believe Randy Ferris said is not available to the 5 executive staff. Therefore, we would have to contract 6 with a private security agency on an annual basis, which 7 we would have to cost in order to do that. 8 MR. RUNNER: And you would interpret then, 9 because of the issue of -- interpreting the issue of 10 safety as being a proactive step in safety -- 11 MS. CAZADD: Correct. 12 MR. RUNNER: -- that it would be -- because you 13 don't know if the issue is concerned of threat, you 14 don't know whether that -- that issue is going to happen 15 or not based upon decisions that are made and, so, 16 you -- right now you're interpreting that motion to be 17 proactive, therefore, requiring then that that personal 18 protection would be required in order for the posting to 19 take place? 20 MS. CAZADD: That's correct because as I 21 understand it, it's preventative. 22 MR. HORTON: Mr. Runner -- 23 MS. CAZADD: Preventative enforcement would -- 24 I'm sorry. 25 MR. HORTON: -- my apologies, Mr. Runner, if I 26 may? 27 I -- as much as -- I am not really suggesting 28 that this be a norm and ongoing practice, that 41 1 everywhere an executive team member goes there has to be 2 some level of security. 3 I mean, we have security here today with us, a 4 Highway Patrolman is here every day, every meeting for 5 some reason -- because there's a presumptions of a need 6 for security. 7 And certainly we may want to have them in the 8 building, in a very secured building with the Highway 9 Patrol, which I think we can provide by virtue that we 10 are constitutional officers. 11 But there is another right that I don't want to 12 impede upon, and that is the right to confidentiality. 13 And, so, what goes on in individuals' lives that will 14 cause them to have a sense of a need for protection as a 15 result of the world now having access to -- without 16 access to this type of information, without them knowing 17 that they have access, which happens in the Public 18 Records Act. 19 And let's make it clear that all of this 20 information is available upon Public Records request and 21 we can certainly make it available. So, we're not 22 really doing anything new, except for we're now putting 23 it out there for people who are just randomly going 24 through or may just not necessarily have the desire of 25 requesting it for specific reasons or disclosing to 26 individuals that they are making these requests, which 27 is required pursuant to a Public Records Act. 28 But they want to have the ability to get the 42 1 information without anyone knowing that they have gotten 2 the information by just accessing our website and then 3 acting accordingly. 4 So, it -- under the presumption that there's a 5 threat out there, which, as I said, I'm not the only one 6 that believes there's a threat, that's why we have the 7 Highway Patrol -- an officer here that I just saw him 8 move his belt -- and, by the way, we should get him a 9 seat or something, I mean, he stands up there all day -- 10 or a pad or something so, just in case he has to act, we 11 want him to be -- but I'm concerned about the 12 confidentiality as well. 13 And I would ask Legal to sort of work that out 14 for us so that if something is going on and a member of 15 our team does not want to disclose to -- to the public 16 or to anyone why they feel that they don't want their 17 in-laws or ex-husband or ex-boyfriends, ex-girlfriends, 18 whatever the case might be, having this information, I 19 don't think they ought to -- they should be compelled to 20 tell us and to make that request. 21 At the same time, I don't want the country to 22 be -- the country or us to be restricted. I mean, ever 23 since 9-11 we see security, security, security and it's 24 beginning to impede upon the civil rights of 25 individuals, the personal rights of individuals and I 26 certainly don't want to go there. 27 So, somewhere in between. 28 MR. RUNNER: So, again, let me go back to the 43 1 Executive Director, based upon then what you just heard, 2 how do you interpret the implementation of what it is 3 that the motion is? 4 MS. CAZADD: If the other side of the concern 5 is that individuals, staff, don't want to have security 6 provided to them, but they possibly have a concern about 7 the issue of having the Form 700 and their travel claims 8 disclosed because they do think they're threatened, then 9 perhaps there could be an opt out. 10 MR. HORTON: That's close enough. 11 MR. RUNNER: So, again, so they would -- so, if 12 they didn't opt out -- so, the opt out would be opting 13 out of the security? 14 MS. CAZADD: No, opting out -- well, they could 15 -- I suppose they could do both. 16 But I was thinking they could opt out of having 17 to meet the requirement of disclosing the documents if 18 they thought there was a valid security threat to 19 themselves for some reason. 20 MR. RUNNER: So, now we're now longer seeing 21 this as a proactive, we're seeing it as a reactive 22 security threat -- in your interpretation? 23 MS. CAZADD: Well, it's trying to interpret. 24 MR. RUNNER: Right, well, that's what I'm 25 trying -- I am just trying to get my arms around the 26 motion in terms of who we're focusing on, how we're 27 doing it. 28 And the bottom line of this for me is what's 44 1 this cost? 2 Before I could vote on anything like this that 3 would entail the issue of private security details and 4 all these other things, I want to know what that cost 5 is. 6 So, I guess I'm -- but I can't get the cost 7 until we even know exactly how it is this takes place. 8 So, I'm -- I don't know, Mr. Chair, I feel like we're 9 kind of doing this a bit on the fly. And I'm wondering 10 if maybe there ought to just be -- 11 MR. HORTON: Welcome to the Board of 12 Equalization. 13 MR. RUNNER: -- yeah, well, I am wondering if 14 there ought to be just -- we've had this discussion now. 15 And it's now it's focused specifically down to the 16 executive -- specifically to the issue of the executive 17 staff, so -- and disclosure. 18 So, maybe that is a specific issue that we 19 could ask the Executive Director to take a look at, to 20 bring a report back to the Board in regards to the issue 21 of disclosures for executive staff, both 700 and travel, 22 and then what the -- what the implications of that is on 23 personal safety. 24 And at least -- at least we know what we're 25 talking about at that point. 'Cause right now I feel 26 like we're -- we're just kind of like, you know, 27 throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks. 28 And I couldn't be prepared to support any of 45 1 it. 2 MS. CAZADD: We can do that. We're happy to do 3 that. 4 MR. RUNNER: I don't know if that satisfies the 5 Chair at this point, but that's -- that certainly would 6 satisfy me with a direction. 7 MR. HORTON: I'm good with that. 8 MS. CAZADD: Okay. 9 MR. HORTON: Because I just want to make it 10 clear that I'm very protective of our team members as 11 well as my colleagues up here. 12 So, these are changing times. 13 MS. CAZADD: All right. 14 MR. HORTON: Thank you. 15 MS. CAZADD: Would a couple of months be okay? 16 MR. HORTON: That's up to the body. 17 MS. YEE: Does it really take that long? 18 MS. CAZADD: It's possible we could he bring it 19 back next month. We would have to look at security 20 contracts and things like that, I'm just not sure. 21 MR. RUNNER: I think two months is 22 reasonable. 23 MS. YEE: Okay. 24 MS. CAZADD: September. 25 MS. STEEL: Why we have to go through this? 26 If we don't put it on the website, we don't 27 have to go through this. 28 Why -- you know, it's all public record. 46 1 Everybody can see whatever -- you know, if they want to 2 find out our travel expenses, they can do it. If they 3 want to go into our Form 700, they can do it. 4 I mean, why we have to -- I don't want somebody 5 to follow me around all day, try to protect me, I mean, 6 that's another big -- big burden, actually. 7 MR. HORTON: Yeah. 8 MS. STEEL: And sometimes you don't even want 9 to have your own family member following you around. 10 And, so, this is seems like somebody -- so, you 11 know, this is -- this is -- I don't know we are really 12 going right direction at this point. 13 If each Member wants to put it on their 14 website, they do it because are elected and you are 15 independent. 16 I don't know why we have to do this. And 17 everything is public record. I keep saying same thing 18 over and over. 19 MR. RUNNER: I think we've narrowed this to 20 executive staff right now, in this discussion. 21 Is that my understanding, Mr. Chair? 22 MS. CAZADD: That's my understanding. 23 MR. HORTON: Yes, it's -- 24 MR. RUNNER: Okay. We're not talking about 25 members or staff, we're talking about executive staff at 26 this point. 27 MS. CAZADD: An by "executive staff," I'm 28 assuming you mean basically the seven Chief Deputy 47 1 Directors, not -- not the 12 or 14 executive team 2 members? 3 MR. RUNNER: I -- 4 MR. HORTON: Yes, Mr. Runner, if I may? 5 The point that -- there is a point that I must 6 make clear and that is that the -- whatever we impose 7 upon the executive staff, we have to be prepared to 8 impose upon ourselves. 9 I am personally prepared to do that. I am not 10 prepared to direct the elected officials what they 11 should do. 12 Even if I had the legal authority to tell them 13 what they should be doing in their District, I would 14 caution myself from doing that. 15 But whatever we impose upon the executive team, 16 Members, it would only be appropriate if we would impose 17 it upon ourselves. 18 And that seems to be fair and equitable. So, 19 with that caveat out there as we go forward, that that 20 would be my position. 21 And I agree with Ms. Steel that this is extreme 22 and, quite frankly, it is a solution looking for a 23 problem. 24 And, quite frankly, I regret the day that we 25 find that problem and not have dealt with -- and have 26 put forth a policy that created that problem. 27 So, Miss -- Members, any other discussion? 28 I think we have gotten there. Thank you very 48 1 much. 2 MS. CAZADD: Thank you. 3 ---o0o--- 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 49 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE. 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, JULI PRICE JACKSON, Hearing Reporter for the 8 California State Board of Equalization certify that on 9 JULY 26, 2011 I recorded verbatim, in shorthand, to the 10 best of my ability, the proceedings in the 11 above-entitled hearing; that I transcribed the shorthand 12 writing into typewriting; and that the preceding pages 1 13 through 49 constitute a complete and accurate 14 transcription of the shorthand writing. 15 16 Dated: AUGUST 17, 2011 17 18 19 ____________________________ 20 JULI PRICE JACKSON 21 Hearing Reporter 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 50