1 BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OF EQUALIZATION 2 450 N STREET 3 CULVER CITY, CALIFORNIA 4 5 6 7 8 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT 9 FEBRUARY 24, 2010 10 11 CORPORATE FRANCHISE AND PERSONAL INCOME TAX HEARING 12 APPEAL OF 13 IAN JAMES JOHNSTON 14 NO. 481263 15 AGAINST PROPOSED ASSESSMENT OF 16 ADDITIONAL TAX 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Reported by: Juli Price Jackson 26 CSR No. 5214 27 28 1 1 P R E S E N T 2 For the Board Betty T. Yee of Equalization: Chair 3 Jerome E. Horton 4 Vice-Chair 5 Bill Leonard Member 6 Michelle Steel 7 Member 8 Marcy Jo Mandel Appearing for John 9 Chiang, State Controller (per Government Code 10 Section 7.9) 11 Diane G. Olson Chief, Board 12 Proceedings Division 13 For Board of Amy Kelly 14 Equalization Staff: Staff Counsel 15 16 For Franchise Tax Karen Smith Board: Tax Counsel 17 Jozel Brunett 18 Tax Counsel 19 20 For Appellant: Ian James Johnston Taxpayer 21 Douglas Barnett 22 Witness 23 Marla Bernstein Witness 24 25 26 ---oOo--- 27 28 2 1 5901 GREEN VALLEY CIRCLE 2 CULVER CITY, CALIFORNIA 3 FEBRUARY 24, 2010 4 ---oOo--- 5 MS. OLSON: The next hearing is B12, Ian James 6 Johnston. 7 Please come forward. 8 MS. YEE: Item B12, Ian James Johnston. 9 Miss Kelly, will you introduce the case? 10 MS. KELLY: The issues in this appeal are 11 whether Appellant has shown error in Respondent's 12 Proposed Assessment, whether Appellant has shown 13 reasonable cause for the abatement of the late filing 14 penalty and whether the Board should impose a frivolous 15 appeal penalty. 16 MS. YEE: Thank you very much. 17 Good morning. 18 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, I actually -- 19 MS. YEE: Could you introduce yourself for the 20 record, please? 21 MR. JOHNSTON: My name is Ian James of the 22 family Johnston. 23 MS. YEE: Okay. 24 MR. JOHNSTON: And I am not the Appellant, I am 25 the secured party and creditor to the Appellant. I am a 26 people of California. 27 Now if you look at your Government Code, you 28 will find out that the people of California are 3 1 sovereign and do not cede their sovereignty to the 2 bodies, ministers, agencies and whatnot that work for 3 them under the State. 4 I do not agree with the idea that these are the 5 issues at question. The real question here is who am I? 6 Okay, who is the Appellant? And who is the person that 7 owns him? 8 Is it the United States government? Is it the 9 State of California? Or is it me, the secured party and 10 creditor as evidenced by Uniform Commercial Code 11 Financing Statement, which is filed in the State of 12 Washington? 13 I would have preferred to file in the State of 14 California, but in 2000 when I filed that Financing 15 Statement, the State of California was not recognizing 16 the right of the people who to their own private 17 property in the personal sense, in the sense that they 18 could own their own skin and their own bodies. 19 Now, when the State, the upper case State, was 20 founded, it was admitted as a free -- freely and evenly 21 as at other states -- several states of the union were. 22 Now, it was done by the people of the State, not the 23 government. The legislature didn't get together, the 24 people got together and they created a constitution and 25 they created a legislature. 26 So, obviously, the power flows from the people, 27 not from the government, okay? Now somebody had made a 28 determination and I'm not sure how because I've never 4 1 seen any evidence presented to that effect, but I am an 2 individual or a person. Those words are odious to me. 3 And they keep being used not only by the Franchise Tax 4 Board, but by your own legal counsel. 5 An individual's defined in the Income Tax Code 6 as a US government employee, as I understand it, am I 7 right about that? Anyone have any ideas? 8 No? All right, well, as I understand it, that 9 is the case, that these words that keep being thrown 10 around are being thrown around for legal reasons. And 11 I'm entitled to a proper construction of any word in the 12 constitution and any word in the law. 13 Now an individual does not apply to me. I am 14 not a US government employee. An employee itself, by 15 the way, or an unemployed person is a US government 16 employee as well, under the -- I think it's the Social 17 Security Act. 18 I don't know what to say except that I have 19 got, you know, tons of documents here which are from the 20 State's own writings which prove that I could not be a 21 US citizen unless I had voluntarily wanted to be. 22 Of course, in Ellen R. Van Valkenberg versus 23 Albert Brown determined that, 24 "No white person born within the limits of the 25 United States is subject to the jurisdiction 26 or born without those limits and subsequently 27 naturalized under their laws owes his status 28 of citizenship to the recent amendments of the 5 1 federal Constitution." 2 That's referring to the 14th Amendment. 3 Now, I am not a racist, believe me. But we 4 all have a history and we have to refer to what's 5 there on the wall, right? 6 And it sucks to me that when the Constitution 7 was written they decided between citizens and persons. 8 And persons were property, citizens had power. They 9 were the people. 10 At somewhere along the way, the Franchise Tax 11 Board and the legal analysts of your own division have 12 decided that there are no people. 13 So, if there are no people, then there is no 14 sovereignty and there is no power upon which you could 15 be acting. So, if there are no people, then I don't 16 even know why we're here. 17 If there are people, I am them. Because I 18 don't see anyone else standing up and saying they're the 19 people of California. If you are a citizen of the 20 United States, why don't you raise your hands? Anyone. 21 No one? 22 We have no citizens of the United States here? 23 No one is going to respond? 24 Well, that's interesting. In any event, I'm 25 going to say that if you're all residents of California, 26 then you are citizens of the United States, which a 27 foreign entity to the lower case S, state of California. 28 Now, I can go through piles of document codes 6 1 here, if you want, I mean documents in your own codes 2 that will show you this. 3 In the Commercial Code I know for a fact that 4 the United States is defined as the District of 5 Columbia. So, if we're in the United States, we're 6 somewhere a couple thousand miles east of here. 7 Now, I have a right to live, a right to 8 property. And it seems like the Franchise Tax Board is 9 trying to -- well, first off, let's look at the name. 10 "franchise." That's defined as a corporation, as I 11 understand it, or perhaps it's referring to an elective 12 franchise, a corporation that's being used as an 13 intermediary between myself and the government. The 14 same franchise that is, in fact, listed as my 15 transmitting utility. 16 So, if you let me finish here, the point I am 17 trying to raise is that they are trying to tax a 18 privilege, which is the right of residents, citizens of 19 the United States, to reside in the lower case S state 20 of California. Because it wouldn't ordinarily be a 21 given, except that we all agreed in the constitution at 22 some point people could move back and forth between the 23 several states. 24 However, since we have an income tax law that 25 was passed after the Trading with the Enemy Act and 26 before and then rejected by the constitution and then 27 since the Trading with Enemy Act everyone's in the 28 United States, and we don't have to look at the 7 1 constitution any more because residents, it has been 2 proven, at least to the sufficiency of the Supreme 3 Court, residents do not have access to Article 4, 4 Section 2. I do have access to Article 4, Section 2. 5 So, what I see is an attack upon my rights, not 6 my civil rights, because civil rights can be taken away 7 by the same government that gave them to you, these are 8 inalienable rights and they're mine. 9 And what I see over here is someone who is 10 acting as an accessory to barratry. Barratry is the 11 criminal action in the Penal Code of three or more 12 frivolous prosecutions. And I'm not sure what the 13 statute is, but I'm going to say it's probably about 14 three years. Now as an accessory, she can't be held for 15 more than two of them, which are 2006 and 2007, which 16 Miss Butler has advanced causes on. 17 However, Arnold Schwarzenegger, being the 18 principal, has engaged many acts of barratry against me 19 in the past three years. So, I could quite easily 20 arrest Miss Butler. 21 And seeing as we have a member of the law 22 enforcement community, I'm going to toy with that idea 23 until we leave here. And if I need to take her into 24 custody, I will do so. 25 And I will hand her over to him and he can see 26 to it that she's admitted to bail. 27 MS. YEE: Okay, thank you, Mr. Johnston. We 28 will give you time on rebuttal. 8 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you. 2 MS. YEE: Franchise Tax Board? 3 MS. SMITH: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members 4 of the Board. My name is Karen Smith. And sitting with 5 me today is Jozel Brunett, representing the Franchise 6 Tax Board. 7 When Appellant did not file an income tax 8 return for the appeal year, Respondent noted that we had 9 information -- 1099 and W2 information that he received 10 monies totaling approximately $20,000. And we took 11 filing enforcement action, which included a Notice of 12 Proposed Assessment. 13 That notice went final and there is a final 14 liability for Appellant, which includes a failure to 15 file penalty and some interest. He has admitted in his 16 writings that he received that money. He just disputes 17 whether or not it's income and whether or not he has to 18 file a return and pay a tax. 19 Under California law, he does. And, therefore, 20 Respondent asks your Board to sustain its action in this 21 case. 22 Thank you. 23 MS. YEE: Thank you very much. 24 Mr. Johnston? 25 MR. JOHNSTON: I want to know who -- who she is 26 saying specifically has the duty, the all capital 27 letters INDIVIDUAL or the creditor that owns him? 28 Because as I understand, you know, from People 9 1 versus Spicer, I know in criminal matters people aren't 2 -- the people do not -- are not supposed to be detained 3 for even more than a minute. It's an unreasonable 4 restraint on their liberty. 5 In this case, you know, basically what we have 6 is a series of positive and negative duties. Now, when 7 we founded the state as the people of California, we 8 created it. And we knew what we were doing. And we 9 didn't need a government to look over our shoulder when 10 we did it. 11 At some point someone decided that US citizens 12 became involved and we started making changes. After 13 the Civil War they repealed the constitution. If you 14 look in your Government Code, you'll find that the 15 current government is not a continuation of the previous 16 government established in 1849, but a continuance. In 17 other words, a suspension. 18 So, I don't have a government. The people of 19 California or the State of California, rather, the 20 people of the State of California are really the people 21 of the United States. They're foreign people living in 22 a federal territory, which the federal government thinks 23 it conquered and somehow with the Civil War, even though 24 California was on the right side of that war and won -- 25 and conquered itself, apparently, helped the District of 26 Columbia conquer the whole nation. 27 Unfortunately, under the constitution, we're 28 entitled to a republican form of government, which means 10 1 a public thing. 2 Now you keep referring to residents and things 3 identified, the power of the sovereign is to name, to 4 tax and to grant titles, okay? 5 Now, the thing it names is the thing it can 6 tax. The res, res public, resident, these are things. 7 I'm not a thing. I am a man. 8 I hear that they say I don't disagree that I 9 made the money. Actually, I did disagree with some of 10 the monies. They said I made all kinds of money and I 11 said, "Well, I didn't make that. Yes, I made that." 12 But, here's the thing, at $11,000 from In 13 Publications, I don't know if I even made a profit. I 14 may have lost money ont that $11,000. I was driving 15 around hundreds of miles every two weeks delivering a 16 free magazine for what seemed like to me it was almost 17 free. And yet they count this as income. 18 Now when you have a corporation come before 19 you -- and corporations are creatures of the law, mind 20 you -- they are forced to do whatever you tell them to. 21 They can be forced to take positive and negative 22 actions, fill out paperwork, do whatever they want 23 because they exist based on the benefit of the State. 24 I, on the other hand, exist and the state 25 exists from my benefit and for my benefit. So, when it 26 comes to questions like this, you're saying I've got to 27 spend hundreds of hours going through all my receipts, 28 filling out paperwork and if then -- and then I, of 11 1 course, have to sign under penalty of perjury. 2 Now as a Member of the religious Society of 3 Friends, you know, I don't believe in being forced to 4 swear. I don't think the constitution or the freedom of 5 conscience clause in the State constitution allows you 6 to be forced to swear anything. 7 Yet, according them, I am forced to file a 8 form, fill it all out, spend hours and hours doing it 9 and then sign under penalty of perjury. It's like 10 they're holding a gun to my head and saying, "You got to 11 sign here and if you lie to me, now we're going to throw 12 you in jail -- if we lie to you, then you're going to 13 throw us in jail." Now, that's an unconscionable 14 contract. 15 If I were to do that to one of you guys, I 16 would think I would be arrested, okay. It's -- it would 17 be criminal, essentially. It's extortion. And it's 18 unfair. 19 I don't know, you know, what all the rules of 20 the Board of Equalization or the State of California 21 are. I do my best as a people of California to appraise 22 (verbatim) myself of these things. But, you know, I 23 don't have to go through, you know, two years, three 24 years of law school just to tell you what you should 25 know already, which is, first off, that their original 26 amount was faulty. They miscalculated it and have 27 recently corrected it. 28 So, my objecting to their -- their, you know, 12 1 amounts and whatever is -- should not be used as a 2 ground to file a penalty on me. 3 Also the fact -- the idea that this is a 4 frivolous appeal, the fact is the United States 5 government released, without prejudice, a case against a 6 man, I think it's Lawrence, I referred to it in my 2007 7 appeal which was dismissed when they dismissed the 8 claim. But this guy -- I think you can find it at "We, 9 the People," or givemeliberty.org. Basically, this guy 10 sent a demand for a bill of particulars and said, "Show 11 me where the Office of Management budget number is on 12 the bottom of the 1040 form. And tell me what law it is 13 that, you know, allowed -- that forces me to do that." 14 He used -- using what's known as a Paperwork 15 Reduction Act defense, which is a complete and total 16 defense, which I, myself, would be happy to avail myself 17 of. 18 However, this Paperwork Reduction Act defense 19 basically says that if you're going to force someone to 20 give you their Social Security number and a bunch of 21 personal information, you have to tell them what law 22 requires them to do so. 23 Well, it turns out from this case, I think it's 24 Lawrence -- Lawrence or something like that -- anyway, 25 the federal government basically admitted that they'd 26 been forging the Office of Management budget numbers on 27 the 1040 form. 28 MS. OLSON: Time has expired. 13 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Okay. Do I get to call 2 witnesses or do -- was I supposed to have done that 3 already? 4 MS. YEE: Well, you should have done that 5 already within your time allotment. 6 But let me see if there are questions that 7 Members have for you, first. 8 Okay? 9 MR. LEONARD: Perhaps on his rebuttal on the 10 witnesses could speak? 11 MS. YEE: Okay, do you have the witnesses here 12 with you? 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, I do. I brought Douglas 14 Barnett and Marla Bernstein. 15 MS. YEE: Please why don't you have them come 16 forward? 17 We will give them two minutes each and they can 18 make their statement. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: Doug, come on up. 20 DOUGLAS BARNETT 21 MS. YEE: If you'll introduce yourself for the 22 record, sir? 23 And then you have two minutes to make a 24 statement. 25 MR. BARNETT: Doug Barnett, co-clerk at the 26 Los Angeles Friends Meeting -- others call us Quakers. 27 MR. JOHNSTON: He -- I have questions for him 28 that he can answer. 14 1 I don't know if he's got a statement, per se. 2 MS. YEE: Okay. I'm going to give you two 3 minutes for each witness. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you. 5 Doug, the year -- is this 2006 we're talking 6 about? 7 MS. YEE: Yes. 8 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. You're aware that I was 9 working for In Magazine, delivering magazines all over 10 LA, correct? 11 MR. BARNETT: I assume they called you a 12 contractor, I don't know who you were working for, if 13 anyone. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: That's a good point. But I was 15 conducting business and dropping off magazines, correct? 16 MR. BARNETT: Right. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: And I had a big step van, right? 18 MR. BARNETT: Among others and they're all 19 parked in the church driveway. 20 MR. JOHNSTON: And how much did I spend on the 21 step van? 22 MR. BARNETT: A bunch. 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Over $3400, right? 24 MR. BARNETT: I have no idea, but the business 25 of delivering of magazines is very expensive. 26 MR. JOHNSTON: And as you -- as far as you are 27 aware, does the step van get reasonable mileage, above 28 or below 10 miles to the gallon? 15 1 MR. BARNETT: It gets about 10. 2 MR. JOHNSTON: Okay. And as part of my route 3 are you aware that I was going in excess of 300 miles 4 every two weeks? 5 MR. BARNETT: From what I saw you were pretty 6 busy at the business. 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. And at the time what was 8 gas running? Do you have any idea? 9 MR. BARNETT: Oh, I think it hit 3 that year. 10 MR. JOHNSTON: Maybe even 4, wasn't it? 11 MR. BARNETT: Better than 3, I wasn't doing 12 much driving. 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Okay. To the best of your 14 knowledge do I go around representing myself as a 15 resident of California? 16 MR. BARNETT: I've served on several boards of 17 corporations with you. You do not do that. 18 In fact, I'm secretary of a board and I have to 19 constantly put your -- your moniker in because you 20 uniquely refuse to be a resident. 21 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you. 22 Doug, did I appear to be financially 23 self-sustaining at the time, 2006? Or was I running 24 week to week like the rest of you? 25 MR. BARNETT: I have never got a lunch out of 26 you and I work hard for you. 27 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you. 28 And are you aware of -- did that 2006 year seem 16 1 like the busiest year I've been working in a while -- 2 before or after? 3 MR. BARNETT: You didn't have a chance to do 4 radio. So, you were doing other things, yeah. You 5 seemed -- 6 MR. JOHNSTON: But at the same -- 7 MR. BARNETT: -- your schedule was pretty 8 tight. 9 I couldn't get you to do anything. 10 MR. JOHNSTON: At the same time wasn't I 11 actually volunteering at the radio station for at least 12 an hour and a half a week on the Blues Power Show? 13 MR. BARNETT: Yeah, in the middle of the night, 14 you were there a lot. 15 MS. OLSON: Time has expired. 16 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you very much. 17 MS. YEE: Thank you. 18 If you'll call your next witness up, please? 19 MR. JOHNSTON: Marla? 20 MARLA BERNSTEIN 21 MR. JOHNSTON: Marla, why don't you state your 22 name for the record. 23 MS. BERNSTEIN: My name is Marla Bernstein. 24 MS. YEE: Okay, you have two minutes, please. 25 MR. JOHNSTON: Marla, we were just referring to 26 a radio station. What radio station was that that we 27 were referring to? 28 THE WITNESS: KPFK 90.7 FM. 17 1 MR. JOHNSTON: And is that nonprofit, public 2 interest, educational foundation -- or part of one? 3 MS. BERNSTEIN: Yes, it is. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: And as far as you understand the 5 tax code, aren't donations to such entities tax 6 deductible? 7 MS. BERNSTEIN: Yes, they are. 8 MR. JOHNSTON: Okay. And yet it's common that 9 you only get that tax deduction if you were to fill out 10 a bunch of paperwork and make sure that you get stuff 11 from the Membership Department that confirms that you 12 made a donation; isn't that true? 13 MS. BERNSTEIN: That's correct. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: An to the best of your knowledge 15 have I ever been the kind of person who would go around 16 demanding proof of my good work and charity? 17 MS. BERNSTEIN: No, I don't -- I don't think 18 that you demand proof of your work. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: And, so, therefore, I wouldn't 20 have anything, necessarily, to indicate exactly how many 21 hours I donated? 22 MS. BERNSTEIN: No. I've donated hundreds of 23 hours myself and I have nothing to show for that. 24 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you very much. 25 MS. YEE: Thank you, Ms. Bernstein. 26 MS. MANDEL: Could I -- before she goes away -- 27 MR. JOHNSTON: Please? 28 MS. MANDEL: -- let me ask her a question. 18 1 The gentleman, Mr. Johnston, was helping out at 2 the station? 3 MS. BERNSTEIN: Yes, volunteer. 4 MS. MANDEL: Okay. Did he ever give any cash 5 funds to the station? 6 MS. BERNSTEIN: I'm not aware of that myself. 7 MS. MANDEL: Did he ever give any other -- 8 well, you can answer, but I just want to see what she 9 knows. 10 Did he ever give any other type of property 11 other than -- I mean, you're saying that he performed 12 some services at the station, but I'm wondering if 13 you're aware if he gave any property, you know, like 14 people donate clothing to Goodwill or something? 15 I'm just wondering. 16 MS. BERNSTEIN: I'm not aware of that. I know 17 three hours of work will give you a membership for a 18 year. That's in lieu of payment. 19 MS. MANDEL: And what would the membership for 20 a year have been for 2006? 21 Do you know? 22 MS. BERNSTEIN: It possibly would have been 25 23 or $50? 24 MS. MANDEL: Okay. 25 MS. BERNSTEIN: It was most likely $50 at that 26 time. 27 MS. MANDEL: Okay, thank you. 28 MS. YEE: Thank you, Ms. Mandel. 19 1 MS. MANDEL: Did you -- 2 MR. JOHNSTON: I'd love to answer. 3 In fact, we have a low income membership for 4 $25 and a regular membership at 50. However, as a board 5 operator, as you'll see, I was being paid at one point, 6 through the transmitting utility, as a board operator at 7 the station. Pacifica Foundation is listed, I believe, 8 as one of my, quote, "employers," though I do not 9 believe I was ever employed or employable. 10 In any event, I worked an hour and a half every 11 week on the Blues Power Show. I don't think I even 12 missed a week that year. And, so, that would be 52 13 times an hour and a half and since I was being paid at 14 about 12 to $14 an hour, I forget exactly what, 15 basically, you know, you could calculate that out over 16 $1,000 worth of donation. 17 I don't -- like I said, I understand that the 18 people's -- pardon me, that the Franchise Tax Board's 19 position is that, you know, you have to file tax returns 20 to get any credit for all this stuff. And, so, I 21 understand why you wouldn't, you know, acknowledge it. 22 However, you know, the fact is that I also believe -- 23 and I've never heard a response from them -- that they 24 took, I think, somewhere between 40 and $80, at least, 25 out of paychecks, because of withholding problems. 26 In other words, when you fill a W4 out, you 27 sign under penalty of perjury. And I filled out 28 "exempt." And, unfortunately, the bookkeepers at a 20 1 couple of these places didn't realize that that included 2 State taxes and, so, they charged State taxes for like a 3 week or two until I was like, "What the hell are you 4 doing? I wrote exempt. Stop doing that." 5 But the fact is, once they take it out, you'll 6 never see it again. 7 And, so, I believe some of this has already 8 been paid, as well as the donations that easily have 9 covered any, you know, outweighed anything that I could 10 possibly have owed to the State. 11 MS. YEE: Thank you. 12 Franchise Tax Board, for the 2006 year was 13 there any kind of garnishment of anything that took 14 place as Mr. Johnston described? 15 MS. SMITH: I'm -- I don't know. 16 MS. YEE: Okay. 17 MS. SMITH: I can check on it. 18 MS. MANDEL: Or withholding credits, 19 withholding credits for 2006? 20 MS. SMITH: I can check on that. I'm not sure 21 at this moment. If you need me to do that, I can. 22 MR. JOHNSTON: For the record, I did point that 23 out in one of the many writings that didn't appear to be 24 read by anybody because they keep asking the same 25 questions and making the same mistakes in response. 26 MS. YEE: Thank you, Mr. Johnston. 27 Other questions, Members? 28 Okay, Ms. Mandel? 21 1 MS. MANDEL: Just -- no, that was the 2 beginning. Okay, I am sorry. 3 MS. YEE: Okay. 4 MS. MANDEL: I will hold it. 5 MS. YEE: All right, very well. 6 Hearing none, is there a motion? 7 MS. MANDEL: Oh, I'm sorry, then I do have my 8 question. 9 Just for Franchise Tax Board, it's my 10 understanding generally on an -- on things in -- whether 11 it's taxes or court, where there's a -- I guess the term 12 that people use is swearing someone in or swearing under 13 penalty of perjury, but that for people who have an 14 issue with swearing, which particularly I think had come 15 up over many, many years ago from the Society of 16 Friends, that there is alternate phrasing that 17 accommodates that concern. 18 And is that -- is that -- that's always been my 19 understanding, that there's alternative language of 20 affirming, so they don't have to swear, which creates 21 religious issues for some people? 22 MS. SMITH: I think that we would accommodate 23 any group that had a -- 24 MR. JOHNSTON: Not me. 25 MS. SMITH: -- religious aversion to signing 26 under penalty of perjury. We could make 27 accommodation. 28 MS. MANDEL: I thought it was -- I thought it 22 1 was incorporated in the language, just as we say swear 2 or affirm. 3 MS. YEE: Okay. 4 MS. SMITH: I'd have to look and double-check. 5 And I do have an answer now for Ms. Yee's 6 question. 7 MS. YEE: Yes, okay? 8 MS. SMITH: Our records did not show any 9 withholding for the 2006 year. It may have been for a 10 different year. 11 MS. YEE: All right. 12 MR. JOHNSTON: If I could address that? 13 MS. YEE: Briefly, Mr. Johnston. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: I just want to say that, you 15 know, if it really is an issue -- and I don't know what 16 the issues are because these people never respond in any 17 affirmative fashion, saying, "Well, then if you say the 18 following, then prove it," or whatever, I probably could 19 dig up a paycheck stub somewhere. I really don't feel 20 like I want to go through all of the piles of notes and 21 whatever I have for those years. But I probably could 22 produce a paycheck stub that would contradict this 23 because I know for a fact that both In Publications and 24 DCM both withheld State monies from the, you know, State 25 income tax withholding, even though I filed a W4 form 26 wrote "exempt" into that box. 27 Now just for the record on swearing, the W4 is 28 also under penalty of perjury. However, I didn't -- you 23 1 know, first off, I didn't -- it's a question of whether 2 I feel right on swearing something. You can't be forced 3 to give testimony against your will. It's an ancient 4 common law jurisprudence. 5 So, the point is, if I feel like swearing, I 6 should be allowed to. If I like affirming, I should be 7 allowed to. I don't believe that the form she's 8 referring to used the word "affirm," but in the case of 9 whether or not I've sworn, I've already sworn a 10 statement. They could have arrested me for perjury on 11 the W4 if they felt that I was lying. 12 But, instead they want the inference that I'm I 13 lying so that they can make the money off me without 14 giving me my day in court. 15 That's what I am saying. 16 MS. YEE: Thank you, Mr. Johnston. 17 All right, Members, do we have a motion? 18 MS. MANDEL: Take it under submission. 19 MS. YEE: A motion by Ms. Mandel to take this 20 matter under submission. 21 Is there a second? 22 MS. STEEL: Second. 23 MS. YEE: Second by Ms. Steel. 24 Without objection, that motion carries. 25 Thank you, Mr. Johnston to you and your 26 witnesses, you've given us a lot to think about. 27 We will discuss your matter later this 28 afternoon. 24 1 MR. JOHNSTON: I appreciate that. 2 MS. YEE: And send you notice of our 3 decision. 4 Thank you. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you. 6 Which one of you guys is Miss Butler? 7 (Inaudible.) 8 She isn't? Smart. 9 ---o0o--- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 25 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 State of California ) 4 ) ss 5 County of Sacramento ) 6 7 I, JULI PRICE JACKSON, Hearing Reporter for the 8 California State Board of Equalization certify that on 9 February 24, 2010 I recorded verbatim, in shorthand, to 10 the best of my ability, the proceedings in the 11 above-entitled hearing; that I transcribed the shorthand 12 writing into typewriting; and that the preceding pages 1 13 through 25 constitute a complete and accurate 14 transcription of the shorthand writing. 15 16 Dated: June 3, 2010 17 18 19 ____________________________ 20 JULI PRICE JACKSON 21 Hearing Reporter 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 26